How will you measure success in 2020

[NPC83]

"(add that with our other issues) which prevents us from spending it elsewhere on the squad (we're competing millions under the salary cap)."

I know I'm gonna regret this but...could you explain factually how we are competing millions under the salary cap ...if it is mandatory that 95% of the sc MUST be spent?

Are we still paying Mbye, Woods, Graham, Klemmer? All the rest left after their contract expired?

It's regulated so we must be spending 9 million atm on our roster.

Shouldn’t be paying for Graham or Klemmer ... not sure about the other 2...

 

[wendog33]

We're spending all of our cap but we're still carrying players on back ended deals (including Foran who isn't going to feature much if at all next season, Hopoate, Tolman and a lot of the players we still have from Des' time). I'm not exactly sure who and how many players we're paying to play elsewhere but there are some of them and this* year is the last year for that too (Mbye would almost be a certainty).

I won't labour the point because I dont know the figures. I'm not criticising the current Admin. It's all the Dibbies.

But if we are still backending/paying Tolman, Hoppa, JJ, Elliott, Mbye then where the hell did the money go a few years ago.

One example of what I'm saying but you can times that by say 6 players....

A scenario... and figures are guesstimates...

Tolman on $600,000 now.

2017 on $300,000 then
2018 on $300,000 then
2019 on $500,000 then
2020 on $600,000

The figures are not exactly factual but its the sc amount effect I'm interested in.

Ie if Tolman, JJ, Graham, Mbye, Hoppa, Elliott, Klemmer, Woods all on backended contracts that jumped up higher in their last year of contract, then what the hell were the other players being paid in 2017, 18, 19 that balanced out the 9 million sc?

The figures have never made sense to me.

 

[Natboy]

I won't labour the point because I dont know the figures. I'm not criticising the current Admin. It's all the Dibbies.

But if we are still backending/paying Tolman, Hoppa, JJ, Elliott, Mbye then where the hell did the money go a few years ago.

One example of what I'm saying but you can times that by say 6 players....

A scenario... and figures are guesstimates...

Tolman on $600,000 now.

2017 on $300,000 then
2018 on $300,000 then
2019 on $500,000 then
2020 on $600,000

The figures are not exactly factual but its the sc amount effect I'm interested in.

Ie if Tolman, JJ, Graham, Mbye, Hoppa, Elliott, Klemmer, Woods all on backended contracts that jumped up higher in their last year of contract, then what the hell were the other players being paid in 2017, 18, 19 that balanced out the 9 million sc?

The figures have never made sense to me.

I agree, in what world did they think they could pay all these players and still be under the salary cap? Don’t forget they tried to sign Tedesco too. Some will say Dib jumped the gun and misjudged how much the salary cap would rise BUT even taking that into consideration we would’ve been massively over the cap by now had we not released so many players.

It also shows how desperately Manly are taking Des back after he did similar to them already too

 

[Haddaway]

I agree with the people who say we are hamstrung by the cap, because I think we are too.

I still expect us to make the 8. If they play like did in the last few months of last year we should be able to make the 8. Looked to me like they were building something off defense.

So I will go into the season with my usual expectations of top 8 (pie in the sky or not lol). If we look to be missing the 8 I will spiral out of control in to a bipolar mess and abuse every player, coach and board member I can blame lol.

I love the start of the NRL season up the Doggies!!!!!!!

 

[bradyk]

I won't labour the point because I dont know the figures. I'm not criticising the current Admin. It's all the Dibbies.

But if we are still backending/paying Tolman, Hoppa, JJ, Elliott, Mbye then where the hell did the money go a few years ago.

One example of what I'm saying but you can times that by say 6 players....

A scenario... and figures are guesstimates...

Tolman on $600,000 now.

2017 on $300,000 then
2018 on $300,000 then
2019 on $500,000 then
2020 on $600,000

The figures are not exactly factual but its the sc amount effect I'm interested in.

Ie if Tolman, JJ, Graham, Mbye, Hoppa, Elliott, Klemmer, Woods all on backended contracts that jumped up higher in their last year of contract, then what the hell were the other players being paid in 2017, 18, 19 that balanced out the 9 million sc?

The figures have never made sense to me.

My understanding is we tried to play to a ~11m cap (obviously we misjudged the growth of the salary cap). If you just google "NRL Bulldogs salary cap" you'll find some articles about it. Clubs used this to their advantage to make us pay a portion of their salary to play elsewhere (if we didn't let go of players we wouldn't of been cap compliant and other clubs are obviously going to be interested in our best players at the time). Foran's back ended contract (as close to factual you'll get) was/is 800k/1m/1.2m.

https://www.sportingnews.com/au/lea...klemmer-des-hasler/1u5ey4oiahehl12ke11onrpzym

The earlier years players were contracted they were obviously given lower than their value (like your Tolman example). Their actual value would of been half way through their contract with the end of their contract resulting in them being overpaid. We did this to give us a two season window or so where we'd retain our best players but also be able to recruit top players (at the time Foran, Woods) giving us an advantage. This was only possible if the salary cap growth was what the club predicted (they basically risked everything on this). It's very possible Hopoate was on 400k/600k/800k (this year). We'd probably say he's a 500k centre. Do you see why this is a problem now?

 

[TwinTurbo]

I won't labour the point because I dont know the figures. I'm not criticising the current Admin. It's all the Dibbies.
But if we are still backending/paying Tolman, Hoppa, JJ, Elliott, Mbye then where the hell did the money go a few years ago.
One example of what I'm saying but you can times that by say 6 players....
A scenario... and figures are guesstimates...
Tolman on $600,000 now.
2017 on $300,000 then
2018 on $300,000 then
2019 on $500,000 then
2020 on $600,000
The figures are not exactly factual but its the sc amount effect I'm interested in.
Ie if Tolman, JJ, Graham, Mbye, Hoppa, Elliott, Klemmer, Woods all on backended contracts that jumped up higher in their last year of contract, then what the hell were the other players being paid in 2017, 18, 19 that balanced out the 9 million sc?
The figures have never made sense to me.

The salary cap contracted payments are double audited, firstly by the club itself supported by a statutory declaration signed by the Directors and then by the NRL auditor, plus professional sports people are always on the ATO hit list. We have to spend 95% of the Cap every year and we have complied with that otherwise we would be being fined and that would be heavily reported on.

To answer your question, at the time when the current guys on back ended contracts were in their lower $ years there were other players in the years of their higher $ contracts, eg; Eastwood in 2018, Mozzies in 2018, Reynolds 2017, Klemmer 2018, Mbye 2017/18, Graham 2017 etc.

Thats' why it hard to offload a player in the last year of a 3 year contract where they are in the higher paying back end of their contract. For example, if a player is on, say, $1.8m for 3 years, meaning he is on an average $600k (which may well be his market worth) per year, but if he is on $900k in his last year no other club is going to take him off our hands and pay him $300k over market value. Understandably they would want us to pay the over market value for that year. Legally I'm not sure how we can pay them after their contract with us has expired. For obvious reasons NRL players aren't allowed to have registered NRL contracts with and be paid simultaneously by 2 different clubs. We could pay the other club but I'm not sure how that would included in our salary cap and excluded from theirs. Because in the end what's included in the Salary Cap is the only thing that is important, to us anyway as we have no shortage of money. May not be the same for cash strapped clubs.

The concept of back ended contracts is that in any one year you have, say, half of your players on less than half of their market value (worth). So you have, say, a $13m team whose contracts for that year total only $9.6m and as a result win the premiership. The idea then is to offload players (premiership winning players) in the middle years when their contract is around their market value (worth). Then start the back ended contracts merry go round all over again with a new batch of players. The problem for us was we didn't win the premiership, so no one wanted the players we needed to offload, as a result they stuck around until the latter years of their contracts where they were on way more than their market value (worth). Why should they leave and give up the pay back for the sacrifices that they made in the early years of their contract.

The back ended contract effect lasts for longer than the 3 or 4 years typical player contract term. For it to work there has to me a mixture of players in their early (lower paid) years whilst others are in their later (higher paid) years. When it all falls apart, as it did for us in 2018, then it's at best a 3 year repair and even that depends on good management to stay under the cap, especially in the 2nd and 3rd years. That's why 2021 is the year that we get to play with a full deck of cards.

Happy New Year to All
Go Dogs

 

[Bad Billy]

I’ve said this before, while I still support pay and the direction he’s taking us, we had a chance to buy certain players this off season and didn’t, which says to me that pay is happy with the current squad.
With that in mind, anything less than finals, is a failure to me.

 

[CrittaMagic69]

I’ve said this before, while I still support pay and the direction he’s taking us, we had a chance to buy certain players this off season and didn’t, which says to me that pay is happy with the current squad.
With that in mind, anything less than finals, is a failure to me.

The cap excuse has always been just that, an excuse. No doubt we're not in the best position possible but it's no where near as bad as the club and some on here make out. Like you said we've had the opportunity to sign certain players yet gone against it, instead choosing to retain the bulk of our squad.

Pay and the club want to build around the group of players currently at the club at it's why certain re-signings have been made and some others will follow.

 

[bradyk]

I’ve said this before, while I still support pay and the direction he’s taking us, we had a chance to buy certain players this off season and didn’t, which says to me that pay is happy with the current squad.
With that in mind, anything less than finals, is a failure to me.

We couldn't buy players because they had interest from other clubs and we don't want to pay overs (or at least a significant amount). Pay has come out and said he wants another three to four DWZ's (a quote very similar to this) and has said we need a Hooker, Centre and Prop. The only thing I'm head scratching about is how we're going to spend the salary cap for 2021 since we haven't made any signings for then (at least that we know of). If we were just to retain our squad and add a couple of "DWZ signings" we're no where near spending 95% of our cap.

 

[NPC83]

We couldn't buy players because they had interest from other clubs and we don't want to pay overs (or at least a significant amount). Pay has come out and said he wants another three to four DWZ's (a quote very similar to this) and has said we need a Hooker, Centre and Prop. The only thing I'm head scratching about is how we're going to spend the salary cap for 2021 since we haven't made any signings for then (at least that we know of). If we were just to retain our squad and add a couple of "DWZ signings" we're no where near spending 95% of our cap.

Might be forced to pay overs haha

 

[bradyk]

Might be forced to pay overs haha

You said it .

 

[Natboy]

The cap excuse has always been just that, an excuse. No doubt we're not in the best position possible but it's no where near as bad as the club and some on here make out. Like you said we've had the opportunity to sign certain players yet gone against it, instead choosing to retain the bulk of our squad.

Pay and the club want to build around the group of players currently at the club at it's why certain re-signings have been made and some others will follow.

To be honest, the club have actually understated how bad it was if anything

 

[speedy2460]

Might be forced to pay overs haha

We might have to pay overs to some extent. But the club is finished with back end / front end deals.

 

[DinkumDog]

You're right every season there are teams that do better or worse than expected. If we start strong the bookies will change too (look at Manly last year). At the moment it looks like we have a mental block when the pressure is on regarding ladder position/finals contention (I also think we lack talent across the field compared to the majority of the other teams and if we lack effort as well we're no chance). Going into the season my expectations are what I've stated (combination of bookies and my own thoughts) but I will reassess as the season progresses. We also need to remember if we didn't sign DWZ mid season and he didn't have the impact we had we most likely would of finished wooden spooners or second last. Our most creative Half on 10% of our salary cap is out for the majority of the season too.

If we lack talent it's two-fold - we didn't have the money to buy the quality in 2018/2019 and most of the players we bought were younger. They've all got somewhere between 20-40 NRL games under their belts after last year, so they are growing into their roles. It was never going to be an overnight cure. Sure, that might be true about DWZ, but you take the good with the bad and it was nice we got some good after suffering so much bad. I firmly believe we're going to do better this year than we did last. No-one is making any crazy predictions but I honestly can't see a reason with our squad why we cannot make the 8. A terrible start or a bad run with injuries may impact that - but if we stay largely healthy and focussed - I feel we can be playing footy in September.

 

[CrittaMagic69]

To be honest, the club have actually understated how bad it was if anything

Na, don't believe you.

 

[DinkumDog]

Wheeling excuses out before a ball has been kicked has been way too easy for the club in the last few years. Sure some has been valid but it’s got to stop. What percentage of the cap Foran takes up is a moot point once the 17 is on the field and it was shown last season the team can win with out him. It’s not one hand tied behind our back anymore the club has made recruitment decisions with this current roster that they now have to live by. As I said before theres no excuses to not be ultra competitive and winning our fair of games when money is on the table. Top 4 and winning comps isn’t happening yet because of the previous cap management but using that as a excuse for anything else is a cop out as far as I’m concerned.

I'd agree with you if it was 2021. It's 2020 - and the pungent aroma of previous decisions still lingers somewhat. It will be gone come 1 November 2020.
Having said that, I strongly believe we can make the 8 this year and will be very disappointed if we don't.

 

[NPC83]

You said it .

It seems there is surplus in the cap for 2021 to keep all the current players we want and need to keep. I’d expect as dire as it seems now there would have to be signings on the way.

 

[NPC83]

We might have to pay overs to some extent. But the club is finished with back end / front end deals.

Front end deals aren’t always so bad.

 

[Spoonman84]

I'd agree with you if it was 2021. It's 2020 - and the pungent aroma of previous decisions still lingers somewhat. It will be gone come 1 November 2020.
Having said that, I strongly believe we can make the 8 this year and will be very disappointed if we don't.

Agree to disagree on that one. Unfortunately I can’t see us making the 8 our spine isn’t good enough and we will be relying on grinding out results. When you’re in arm wrestling games you need a defensive effort for the whole 80, a degree of luck, decent ref calls and the bounce of the ball to win. If we get more rub of the green then not we could sneak in but if we don’t we could be in spoon contention.

 

[DinkumDog]

Agree to disagree on that one. Unfortunately I can’t see us making the 8 our spine isn’t good enough and we will be relying on grinding out results. When you’re in arm wrestling games you need a defensive effort for the whole 80, a degree of luck, decent ref calls and the bounce of the ball to win. If we get more rub of the green then not we could sneak in but if we don’t we could be in spoon contention.

We can discuss in September.
For now my glass remains half full