Opinion Foran - Burgess - Salary Cap relief and exemption fiasco

[Noeasyday]

It'd be nice if the NRL could make a decision on this as quick as the Sam Burgess decision.

 

[youoboys]

Bulldogs fan here:
You know me.... you know where I been and what I can do, I will let you know. He makes a comeback against manly in May 2020 and does really well and proves vital for what happens next season. Nrl have no respect for dogs and only give $150k cap relief. This starts us against them mentality that triggers this next wave of dogs of war.

 

[TwinTurbo]

Not defending the NRL, but Burgess is an easy, open and shut case, he will never play NRL again. Foran's case in more complex with indeterminate timing on when he can play again.

Go Dogs

 

[Howard Moon]

Not defending the NRL, but Burgess is an easy, open and shut case, he will never play NRL again. Foran's case in more complex with indeterminate timing on when he can play again.

Go Dogs

I agree.. the only thing I was wondering about is.. didn't Canberra get some kind of cap relief for Jordan Rapana this year? not sure if it's been mentioned here.... Foz' situation is far worse

 

[Mr Invisible]

Not defending the NRL, but Burgess is an easy, open and shut case, he will never play NRL again. Foran's case in more complex with indeterminate timing on when he can play again.

Go Dogs

I can't see how it isn't EASIER than Burgess's case.

Dogs aren't asking for full cap compensation, they are asking for the $350k salary cap compensation, which the NRL introduced specifically for if a club player gets injured during an international or SOO game, and is out for more than 3 months (or whatever it is).

If he returns faster than the 3 months or whatever it is, then pro rata the compensation.

NRL loves making rules but seems they only apply to benefit SOME clubs.

 

[Noeasyday]

Not defending the NRL, but Burgess is an easy, open and shut case, he will never play NRL again. Foran's case in more complex with indeterminate timing on when he can play again.

Go Dogs

Got to disagree here.
Foran's injury sustained in an international game, should only require a medical report stating estimated recuperation period. If said period is greater than round 12, $350k compo under the Hodgson rule is granted, we get 350k cap excemption as per the rule.
Burgess has retired from the game, within 37 days NRL decide it's a salary cap exempt retirement. The NRL's own guide states "The Player, had no similar injury or medical condition to that area of the body that either has or could reasonably be predicted medically to lead to a degenerative condition of that area of the body prior to signing his last NRL contract". Burgess has had chronic shoulder issues, so fails the first part. To me there's a lot of grey area in the interpretation around that rule. Infection is always a risk post op. With Burgess' history of chronic shoulder it could be reasonable to assume he'd need an operation at some stage and with infection a potential side effect it could have reasonably been predicted he would retire due to complications on the already known chronic shoulder injuries.

 

[TwinTurbo]

I can't see how it isn't EASIER than Burgess's case.
Dogs aren't asking for full cap compensation, they are asking for the $350k salary cap compensation, which the NRL introduced specifically for if a club player gets injured during an international or SOO game, and is out for more than 3 months (or whatever it is).
If he returns faster than the 3 months or whatever it is, then pro rata the compensation.
NRL loves making rules but seems they only apply to benefit SOME clubs.

Welcome back, I missed you.

The way I see it the NRL have farked up big time with the international injury rule in that it has a fixed term and is for a fixed amount of compensation. Serious injuries just aren't like that, plus players heal at different rates and put different levels into their recovery. As a result even a world renown specialist can't say for certain how long it will take until Foran can play NRL. Plus we aren't talking just about cash here, it's salary cap relief that's the most important factor. You can't give salary cap relief for $350k and then take it back if the player returns early. It's too bloody late, the contracts are signed and the replacement player paid. The NRL should have expended more effort working out the bugs, currently it has so many holes in it and that's why it's going to take time to rewrite the rules properly and then implement them. Plus this is the first time that they will be "paying" compensation under this rule ,so there is no precedent for them to rely on.

In comparison the Burgess scenario is very black and white and has precedents.

Go Dogs

 

[Noeasyday]

Welcome back, I missed you.

The way I see it the NRL have farked up big time with the international injury rule in that it has a fixed term and is for a fixed amount of compensation. Serious injuries just aren't like that, plus players heal at different rates and put different levels into their recovery. As a result even a world renown specialist can't say for certain how long it will take until Foran can play NRL. Plus we aren't talking just about cash here, it's salary cap relief that's the most important factor. You can't give salary cap relief for $350k and then take it back if the player returns early. It's too bloody late, the contracts are signed and the replacement player paid. The NRL should have expended more effort working out the bugs, currently it has so many holes in it and that's why it's going to take time to rewrite the rules properly and then implement them. Plus this is the first time that they will be "paying" compensation under this rule ,so there is no precedent for them to rely on.

In comparison the Burgess scenario is very black and white and has precedents.

Go Dogs

Who's rewriting the rules?
You've got to work with the existing rule, which states that "should a player miss 12 or more games as a result of an injury sustained in representative match, the players club is entitled to a $350 000 salary cap excemption".
Foran had the second operation to fix his rotator cuff, the same surgery took Billy Slater 12 months to come back from.
We're entitled to a 350k exemption and it should be approved asap.

 

[TwinTurbo]

Foran's injury sustained in an international game, should only require a medical report stating estimated recuperation period. If said period is greater than round 12, $350k compo under the Hodgson rule is granted, we get 350k cap excemption as per the rule.

What if the doctors won't commit to a recuperation period? What if they say "it could be 10 weeks or it could be 20 weeks, depending on lots of factors". What if the doctors say 13 weeks and Foran does another miracle recovery (he has already done one) and comes back 2 weeks early? Do we give the money back? Unsign the contract with the replacement player? Make him repay the money that he was paid? The player that we should not have had, so we forfeit the points earned when he played? Do we get a fine for exceeding the salary cap? Lose points?

There's bucket load of holes in that NRL rule, that fail the real world test.

Go Dogs

 

[NB dog]

What if the doctors won't commit to a recuperation period? What if they say "it could be 10 weeks or it could be 20 weeks, depending on lots of factors". What if the doctors say 13 weeks and Foran does another miracle recovery (he has already done one) and comes back 2 weeks early? Do we give the money back? Unsign the contract with the replacement player? Make him repay the money that he was paid? The player that we should not have had, so we forfeit the points earned when he played? Do we get a fine for exceeding the salary cap? Lose points?

There's bucket load of holes in that NRL rule, that fail the real world test.

Go Dogs

 

[NB dog]

In the case of injury incurred during an international match... why can’t they work out any individuals salary per game. Calculate how many games they are out for and then that is the salary cap relief? In the case a player returns early the amount of games early then determines the new relief figure?
Seems fair considering all players salaries vary so greatly

 

[Noeasyday]

What if the doctors won't commit to a recuperation period? What if they say "it could be 10 weeks or it could be 20 weeks, depending on lots of factors". What if the doctors say 13 weeks and Foran does another miracle recovery (he has already done one) and comes back 2 weeks early? Do we give the money back? Unsign the contract with the replacement player? Make him repay the money that he was paid? The player that we should not have had, so we forfeit the points earned when he played? Do we get a fine for exceeding the salary cap? Lose points?

There's bucket load of holes in that NRL rule, that fail the real world test.

Go Dogs

I agree, plenty of holes in that rule, but as the rule stands, in its simplicity we are eligible for the 350k salary cap excemption, so long as Foran doesn't play before round 13.
If it took Slater 12 months to come back from the same injury then that's the yardstick by which the NRL should measure.
Presuming we get the 350k, and in the unlikely event that Foran is fit prior to round 13, then he isn't able to play.
Seems simple right?

 

[Flanagun]

Foran is a.wankstain. Does and the pro IOU’s administration are wankstains for signing him too. Greenberg is a wankstain also, but not at fault over this psrtyiculsr situation.
That’s about it.

 

[TwinTurbo]

I agree, plenty of holes in that rule, but as the rule stands, in its simplicity we are eligible for the 350k salary cap excemption, so long as Foran doesn't play before round 13.
If it took Slater 12 months to come back from the same injury then that's the yardstick by which the NRL should measure.
Presuming we get the 350k, and in the unlikely event that Foran is fit prior to round 13, then he isn't able to play.
Seems simple right?

I agree it seems simple in theory but in the real world it isn't. Firstly we don't have to sign a replacement for $350k, we could sign one for, say, $500k by kicking in some of the small amount we have left available under the cap. I don't see any player signing with us for the pre season and then 13 games., although for $350k it's not a bad deal. But then he is cut loose mid season, to find another team, Round 13 is before the June 30 cut off, but still that's a tough call for all parties to make. Possibly we could sign someone who is willing to take a contract for 2 or 3 years but only play for 13 games then take the rest of next season off and come back ready 2021. Some creative contract negotiations required there, that would have to be agreed to in advance by the NRL. Maybe that's the issue, not the simple "$350k for 13 games", but the effect that has on the player and the team going forward, not just next year but possibly subsequent years as well.

Plus there is the whole "replacement player" question, Foran is 5/8 or 1/2, what does that mean for his replacement? They have to have played 1 game or is it 100 games at 5/8 or 1/2? At NRL or some other level? Or just wants to play 5/8 or /1/2, never having played at any level there before? This part of the "rule" is pretty stupid, just because a team losses a 5/8 or 1/2 doesn't mean that there is another 5/8 or 1/2 just sitting there waiting, ready to fill in. If we replace him with a makeshift 5/8 or 1/2 that's our problem surely, why should the NRL be concerned? Well, that's how the rule is written, so the NRL have to basically "approve" the replacement player.

FWIW Slater's situation was very different, he had already had surgery to correct his rotor cuff problem whereas Foran's first surgery was to correct another issue. From my limited understanding Slater had to have the flow on issues caused by the first surgery on his rotor cuff corrected and then the correct surgery technique carried out. That's why his recovery period was much longer.

Go Dogs

 

[Noeasyday]

I agree it seems simple in theory but in the real world it isn't. Firstly we don't have to sign a replacement for $350k, we could sign one for, say, $500k by kicking in some of the small amount we have left available under the cap. I don't see any player signing with us for the pre season and then 13 games., although for $350k it's not a bad deal. But then he is cut loose mid season, to find another team, Round 13 is before the June 30 cut off, but still that's a tough call for all parties to make. Possibly we could sign someone who is willing to take a contract for 2 or 3 years but only play for 13 games then take the rest of next season off and come back ready 2021. Some creative contract negotiations required there, that would have to be agreed to in advance by the NRL. Maybe that's the issue, not the simple "$350k for 13 games", but the effect that has on the player and the team going forward, not just next year but possibly subsequent years as well.

Plus there is the whole "replacement player" question, Foran is 5/8 or 1/2, what does that mean for his replacement? They have to have played 1 game or is it 100 games at 5/8 or 1/2? At NRL or some other level? Or just wants to play 5/8 or /1/2, never having played at any level there before? This part of the "rule" is pretty stupid, just because a team losses a 5/8 or 1/2 doesn't mean that there is another 5/8 or 1/2 just sitting there waiting, ready to fill in. If we replace him with a makeshift 5/8 or 1/2 that's our problem surely, why should the NRL be concerned? Well, that's how the rule is written, so the NRL have to basically "approve" the replacement player.

FWIW Slater's situation was very different, he had already had surgery to correct his rotor cuff problem whereas Foran's first surgery was to correct another issue. From my limited understanding Slater had to have the flow on issues caused by the first surgery on his rotor cuff corrected and then the correct surgery technique carried out. That's why his recovery period was much longer.

Go Dogs

We have 1 spot left in the top 30, which means we need to add a player to the squad by June 30th. So your whole point of signing a player for 13 games is a moot point.
The rule is a like for like player and I agree this is a grey area. Hypothetically, let's say we sign Latrell Mitchell on the 1st of January for 800k for the year. Our top 30 is now set unless a player moves on.
Say Mitchell's signed for 800k the next 3 years. In 2020, his contract is made up of a Roosters portion (November and December app 132k) the 350k rep excemption from Foran, and the remaining 318k from the money left in our cap.
Rounds 1 thru to 12, Mitchell is named in the 6 jersey and Lewis in the 4. On the field they swap around. If on or after round 13 Foran makes a miraculous recovery then he is free for selection. If he is fit prior to round 12 he stays on the sideline.
Slater's issue was that the first surgery he didn't have the rotator cuff repaired, hence played 2 or 3 games and was subsequently out for the rest of the year when he realised he needed the surgery on the rotator cuff. Foran has had this surgery which is typically (as shown by Slater) a 12mth recovery time.

 

[Noeasyday]

Kieran Foran’s surgeon will rebuild broken playm
Phil Rothfield
The Daily Telegraph
Subscriber only
November 16, 2019 8:00pm

The shoulder surgeon who saved the career of Melbourne Storm superstar Billy Slater says he can do the same for luckless Canterbury Bulldogs star Kieran Foran.

Dr John Trantalis operated on Foran last week and later declared the million-dollar playmaker will return at 100 per cent fitness if he undergoes a second round of surgery.

Foran, however, is facing a huge decision about the next step of his recovery.

Kieran Foran was injured against the Great Britain Lions. Picture: Fiona Goodall
MORE NRL NEWS

REVEALED: BULLDOGS DRAW UP

“Not only did he dislocate the shoulder, but he tore off his rotator cuff as well,” Dr Trantalis told The Sunday Telegraph.

“He’s had one problem fixed to stop it popping out again but he’s tossing up whether to get the rotator cuff fixed as well.

“That recovery is a lot longer and took Billy Slater 12 months.

“So he’s got to decide whether to battle on the way it is and get back to football next year and cope with the pain and do his best. That way’s a lot faster.

Dr John Trantalis is the surgeon who saved Billy Slater's career. Picture: Jonathan Ng
“He’s off contract next year and it’s a big issue because he wants to play as soon as possible.”

The 29-year-old five-eighth or halfback will decide over the weekend with Canterbury’s medical staff. He’s desperate to play next year to show the Bulldogs and rival clubs that he deserves another contract.

“There’s no question he can come back,” Dr Trantalis said, “He’s had ongoing issues with the shoulder but he’s got the potential to make a full recovery.

“He’s just got to decide which way to go. I found him very motivated to continue playing and there’s no reason he can’t and have a good positive end to his career.

Foran is deciding on the next step of his recovery.
“The difficulty is his contract situation.”

Foran remains in an upbeat mood despite yet another injury setback.

By the end of next year he will have missed 70 games in five seasons.

“This isn’t about the money,” Foran said. “It’s about playing a game I love for another few years and to achieve what I set out to do when I first started in rugby league.”

Dr Trantalis saved Slater’s career when most thought the champion Storm fullback had no hope of playing again.

The moment Kieran Foran injured his shoulder
“I hadn’t seen a worse case in a footballer,” Dr Trantalis said

“It’s usually a major trauma to rip off the tendon like Billy did. Like a really bad car accident.

“I was optimistic I could get his shoulder better but I was concerned it may be career-ending.

“He was in a bad way and couldn’t even hold his arm up.”

He credits Slater for showing an extraordinary commitment to his rehabilitation.

“He is the best rehab patient I’ve ever had,” Dr Trantalis said.

“The commitment he showed. Wow. The motivation. Fantastic.”


Read Comments

 

[JUNKYARD DOGS]

 

[wendog33]

Missed 70 games in 5 seasons? Well done Dib/Despot.

"Foran is deciding on the next step of his recovery.
“The difficulty is his contract situation.”

Foran remains in an upbeat mood despite yet another injury setback.

By the end of next year he will have missed 70 games in five seasons.

“This isn’t about the money,” Foran said. “It’s about playing a game I love for another few years and to achieve what I set out to do when I first started in rugby league.”

 

[TwinTurbo]

Slater's issue was that the first surgery he didn't have the rotator cuff repaired, hence played 2 or 3 games and was subsequently out for the rest of the year when he realised he needed the surgery on the rotator cuff. Foran has had this surgery which is typically (as shown by Slater) a 12mth recovery time.

We can split hairs on this one, Slater originally suffered a labral tear of the glenohumeral joint of his left shoulder. The rotor cuff is made up of 4 muscles plus their tendons and together they form a "cuff" around the glenohumeral joint. As a result of the ineffective surgery to the labral tear it was necessary to do a complex reconstruction of the complete rotor cuff (muscles and tendons). That's a step further than what Foran required, surgery which has now been completed.

We have 1 spot left in the top 30, which means we need to add a player to the squad by June 30th. So your whole point of signing a player for 13 games is a moot point.
The rule is a like for like player and I agree this is a grey area. Hypothetically, let's say we sign Latrell Mitchell on the 1st of January for 800k for the year. Our top 30 is now set unless a player moves on.
Say Mitchell's signed for 800k the next 3 years. In 2020, his contract is made up of a Roosters portion (November and December app 132k) the 350k rep excemption from Foran, and the remaining 318k from the money left in our cap.
Rounds 1 thru to 12, Mitchell is named in the 6 jersey and Lewis in the 4. On the field they swap around. If on or after round 13 Foran makes a miraculous recovery then he is free for selection. If he is fit prior to round 12 he stays on the sideline.

I am not sure what 1 spot left has to do with Foran's replacement, we could have 30 players registered and still the NRL would allow a replacement. The 1 spot left only comes into relevance after Foran actually returns. If we have it available then the player can continue to play for us, if not he can't or we release someone else. The 13 games is the NRL minimum (for them to approve an exempt replacement) so it can never be moot.

It would be possible for us to sign Mitchell now, either as player #30 or as Foran's replacement if the NRL approves, meaning that we would still have 1 spot vacant. Then when Foran returns we could convert Mitchell to player 30 as long at it was before 30th June.

The monetary combinations are endless, because there is the cash amount (what the player actually receives) and the NRL contract amount (what is included in the salary cap). For us the cash amount is irrelevant, we have plenty, it's what's included in the cap that matters. We could for example pay him up to $100k motor vehicle allowance that's not included in the cap. https://www.nrl.com/operations/integrity/salary-cap/

The real issue, the NRL rule (for replacements due to International duty injury) doesn't allow for the "standing down" of a player ie; "if he is fit prior to round 12 he stays on the sideline". The way the rule is written the player has to be unavailable due to the injury suffered whilst on International duty for the 13 weeks. There is no provision for "oh shit, he recovered faster than we thought". My experience with doctors is that they are unwilling to lie about an injury, which includes a player being fully fit and ready to play and then stating that he isn't. Plus the NRL doctors would do their own assessment. No one truly knows how long the real recovery period is going to be.


Go Dogs

 

[Noeasyday]

We can split hairs on this one, Slater originally suffered a labral tear of the glenohumeral joint of his left shoulder. The rotor cuff is made up of 4 muscles plus their tendons and together they form a "cuff" around the glenohumeral joint. As a result of the ineffective surgery to the labral tear it was necessary to do a complex reconstruction of the complete rotor cuff (muscles and tendons). That's a step further than what Foran required, surgery which has now been completed.



I am not sure what 1 spot left has to do with Foran's replacement, we could have 30 players registered and still the NRL would allow a replacement. The 1 spot left only comes into relevance after Foran actually returns. If we have it available then the player can continue to play for us, if not he can't or we release someone else. The 13 games is the NRL minimum (for them to approve an exempt replacement) so it can never be moot.

It would be possible for us to sign Mitchell now, either as player #30 or as Foran's replacement if the NRL approves, meaning that we would still have 1 spot vacant. Then when Foran returns we could convert Mitchell to player 30 as long at it was before 30th June.

The monetary combinations are endless, because there is the cash amount (what the player actually receives) and the NRL contract amount (what is included in the salary cap). For us the cash amount is irrelevant, we have plenty, it's what's included in the cap that matters. We could for example pay him up to $100k motor vehicle allowance that's not included in the cap. https://www.nrl.com/operations/integrity/salary-cap/

The real issue, the NRL rule (for replacements due to International duty injury) doesn't allow for the "standing down" of a player ie; "if he is fit prior to round 12 he stays on the sideline". The way the rule is written the player has to be unavailable due to the injury suffered whilst on International duty for the 13 weeks. There is no provision for "oh shit, he recovered faster than we thought". My experience with doctors is that they are unwilling to lie about an injury, which includes a player being fully fit and ready to play and then stating that he isn't. Plus the NRL doctors would do their own assessment. No one truly knows how long the real recovery period is going to be.


Go Dogs

It's a salary cap excemption not an extra player added to the top 30.