Board need to go if Dogs fail to sign elite players like David Fifita / Latrell Mitchell

DinkumDog

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I don't think the club is on a downward spiral, we're just not going to be able to recruit like a top team (will need to use different methods to attract, e.g. money, I also believe CURRENTLY we're the last Sydney club a player would join, yes behind the Dragons and Tigers...). I think we'll finish around the same next year and 2021 will be a really good year for us, assuming we bring players that will make a difference in, but we'll have a few players in the squad worth more then their value so until we can correct that (need success, when their contracts run down, resigning for cheaper or moving them on) down the years/track we're going to be disadvantaged. We're currently a team that's expected to finish just outside the 8 (according to some even lower, I'm personally going to predict us to finish around ~10th based on heart). I think the recruits we make for 2021 will make us an established top 8 side but there will still be a long way to go for top 4. When we're in that position (established top 8 side) then maybe some of the reject signings we're going for will sign for what they're worth but until then I don't see them picking us over another club when they have more success + spending more money then us... (literally the reason why we've missed out on players).
No worries mate - you’re holding your line and you’re entitled to your views - so we’ll agree to disagree - I personally hope the club doesn’t splash stupid cash for short term gain and end up with buyers remorse like we did T-Rex (biggest waste of $2m ever) among others.

I agree there’s work to do before we threaten the top 4, but I reckon we’re a hell of a chance to make the 8 in 2020. The 4 will come - perhaps by 2021.

I also disagree players choose the Dogs last too. What about Matterson trying to get out of the Tigpies? Frizell allegedly unhappy at St. Merge? Some say DWZ only came to Belmore given he had no choice - I’ve heard differently and regardless, he’s already on the record since arriving saying he wishes he came earlier - so I just don’t buy that other clubs are great and the Dogs are a players last resort.

Let’s see what starts emerging after 1 November. I hope and believe we’re in for some pleasant surprises recruitment wise and in a new major sponsor.

Roll on 2020.
 

JUNKYARD DOGS

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No worries mate - you’re holding your line and you’re entitled to your views - so we’ll agree to disagree - I personally hope the club doesn’t splash stupid cash for short term gain and end up with buyers remorse like we did T-Rex (biggest waste of $2m ever) among others.

I agree there’s work to do before we threaten the top 4, but I reckon we’re a hell of a chance to make the 8 in 2020. The 4 will come - perhaps by 2021.

I also disagree players choose the Dogs last too. What about Matterson trying to get out of the Tigpies? Frizell allegedly unhappy at St. Merge? Some say DWZ only came to Belmore given he had no choice - I’ve heard differently and regardless, he’s already on the record since arriving saying he wishes he came earlier - so I just don’t buy that other clubs are great and the Dogs are a players last resort.

Let’s see what starts emerging after 1 November. I hope and believe we’re in for some pleasant surprises recruitment wise and in a new major sponsor.

Roll on 2020.
Would be less school yard fights and Terry tough Karnts if a few more could respond like this. And agree cant see too many thinking we are the worst club to come to, speak to a few ex Dogs players and most say the Dogs looked after them the most out af any other club during their time in NRL.
 

bradyk

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No worries mate - you’re holding your line and you’re entitled to your views - so we’ll agree to disagree - I personally hope the club doesn’t splash stupid cash for short term gain and end up with buyers remorse like we did T-Rex (biggest waste of $2m ever) among others.

I agree there’s work to do before we threaten the top 4, but I reckon we’re a hell of a chance to make the 8 in 2020. The 4 will come - perhaps by 2021.

I also disagree players choose the Dogs last too. What about Matterson trying to get out of the Tigpies? Frizell allegedly unhappy at St. Merge? Some say DWZ only came to Belmore given he had no choice - I’ve heard differently and regardless, he’s already on the record since arriving saying he wishes he came earlier - so I just don’t buy that other clubs are great and the Dogs are a players last resort.

Let’s see what starts emerging after 1 November. I hope and believe we’re in for some pleasant surprises recruitment wise and in a new major sponsor.

Roll on 2020.
I think once a player is here they'll be happy (DWZ, Napa, etc). The problem is getting them here. Matterson (it has also been rumoured that we're monitoring his situation, I'm sure we've talked to him like we talk with everyone that's available) is leaving because he wants more money. The Dragons/Tigers are just above us in that regard - attracting talent (Dragons literally hammered us both times we played them this year, they have a better roster on paper then us, Tigers were more competitive last year for the majority of the season and missed out on the 8 by losing their last game). Even if you could argue we're more attractive then those 2 clubs you literally couldn't for the rest of the Sydney clubs, so you'd really just be clutching at straws. I'm pretty sure Frizell wouldn't come play for us if we're paying value (he'll also get offers from clubs above us which is why). Interesting/exciting times coming up anyways with November right around the corner, I'd love to be proven wrong.
 
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DinkumDog

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I think once a player is here they'll be happy (DWZ, Napa, etc). The problem is getting them here. Matterson (it has also been rumoured that we're monitoring his situation, I'm sure we've talked to him like we talk with everyone that's available) is leaving because he wants more money. The Dragons/Tigers are just above us in that regard - attracting talent (Dragons literally hammered us both times we played them this year, they have a better roster on paper then us, Tigers were more competitive last year for the majority of the season and missed out on the 8 by losing their last game). Even if you could argue we're more attractive then those 2 clubs you literally couldn't for the rest of the Sydney clubs, so you'd really just be clutching at straws. I'm pretty sure Frizell wouldn't come play for us if we're paying value (he'll also get offers from clubs above us which is why). Interesting/exciting times coming up anyways with November right around the corner, I'd love to be proven wrong.
Sure we might have spoken to Matterson.
If money is his motive, like Api and Ramien, we will pass and not cave to unrealistic demands. Shrewd business. Players and their greedy managers should know who’s in charge.

I didn’t say Frizell wanted to come to the Dogs. My point was the grass isn’t necessarily greener outside Belmore which seems to be one of your points.

We hammered the Dragons at Kogarah in 2018. Who cares about ‘on paper’ - they finished lower than us in 2019, whatever the reasons.

As for the rest of Sydney - wasn’t that long ago that the Eels couldn’t beat an egg in a bowl. Soufs were rubbish for years before The Gladiator poured his cash in. I just don’t think this argument holds water - we will rise again and we’re already on our way. Our biggest competitors are not just other RL clubs, but AFL (Giants making the GF attracts more grass roots interest), A-League soccer and lazy kids watching Netflix. Tough market, but good culture builds good product and becomes attractive in its own right.

I don’t think anyone cares who’s right and wrong - at the end of the day we all want the same thing - the Dogs to succeed and win another comp sooner rather than later. It’s just a matter of how we get there.
 

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Having read through this thread and with careful attention to bradyk's arguments, I must admit that I am now fully convinced. It is vital that we NOT pay overs for players.
 

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Yeah so you're confused (inept). 200-300k for top players, e.g. Latrell, Fifita. If we want to sign them that's how how we're going to have to pay on top. That's isn't debatable (if we don't pay it, we don't get them, simple, I'm just saying it how it is). When you talk about decent players, e.g. Koroisau, Ramien, other players around that level we're going to have to pay at least 100k more (I've clearly said the higher the player is valued the more we're going have to pay to lure them... please don't blanket 200-300k for EVERY player, it makes you like like an idiot) if they're wanted by other clubs (or a club is wanting to retain them). You do realise recruiting for 2021 starts in 9 days right? The club has been doing the method you've said for 2 years already. If we want to be competitive in 2021/sign players (that're going to be a difference...) we're going to have to pay that extra to attract talent. The reason why I ask for an alternative is people like you argue with me or say I'm wrong but don't tell me how we're going to recruit ~3m worth of talent before 2021. "Now, if you've got nothing more to say other than 'sign players like Mitchell and Fifta' then please leave it ..." This is moronic and I've said multiple times even decent players we're going to have to pay more to get. I've even said my recruits right now, best case scenario, would be Latrell, Harry Grant, Thompson and Vunivalu. You aren't getting any of them (or anyone else) for value. We will literally sign no one if we don't pay extra. Only 1 of those players is a 1m player and I personally think he's a must signing. That's he situation we're in, open your eyes. If anything the examples you've given e.g. Newcastle, Ramien, Koroisau strengthen what I'm saying (how to recruit - regardless if it worked out or not, we have a stronger base then Newcastle and not coming from 16th position multiple years in a row..., why players didn't join, etc) and besides that you've pretty much changed what I've said and taken bits and pieces to suit your agenda.
Maybe I am inept. My wife has been saying that for years ....

I think you're looking at this the wrong way. You keep pushing that you need to pay more to get the top players. You say 200-300,000 then OK that's your opinion. I don't think anyone is arguing with you about the need to pay more as we're not that attractive ... for now. It's just something we'd have to do if we wanted to get those top top players as we're not really in the position to get those players based on our on-field success etc. I don't think we'd need to pay that much over if I'm honest but it's all just opinions really isn't it?

From my side I'm simply saying that the club won't do this, and it'd be unbelievably stupid of them to do that based on the mess we created by paying overs no matter what the circumstances, and that other clubs that have tried to buy themselves out of trouble haven't succeeded in getting any better. In fact, clubs like Brisbane are quickly trying to cut their losses of their high profile big money signings as it's unbalanced their squad and threatens the good youth coming through which what long-term planning should avoid in the first place. Not throwing money around just because you have it but making the correct buy.

By all means stick to what you're saying. Focus on the need to pay overs. Ignore that everyone understands that we're not an unbelievably attractive club atm. That's fine. You've got your point of view and it's just that. Your point of view. If you stopped your monologues you might actually see that we all understand what you're saying and agree to some degree with the point about paying overs.

I just think differently when it comes to it being good for the club. And I hope the club do also. Based on the examples given Ramien, Api etc. I believe the club understands this and won't thankfully be following your advice. Doesn't mean your wrong as only time will tell. But I'd back them over you. Sorry.
 

bradyk

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Maybe I am inept. My wife has been saying that for years ....

I think you're looking at this the wrong way. You keep pushing that you need to pay more to get the top players. You say 200-300,000 then OK that's your opinion. I don't think anyone is arguing with you about the need to pay more as we're not that attractive ... for now. It's just something we'd have to do if we wanted to get those top top players as we're not really in the position to get those players based on our on-field success etc. I don't think we'd need to pay that much over if I'm honest but it's all just opinions really isn't it?

From my side I'm simply saying that the club won't do this, and it'd be unbelievably stupid of them to do that based on the mess we created by paying overs no matter what the circumstances, and that other clubs that have tried to buy themselves out of trouble haven't succeeded in getting any better. In fact, clubs like Brisbane are quickly trying to cut their losses of their high profile big money signings as it's unbalanced their squad and threatens the good youth coming through which what long-term planning should avoid in the first place. Not throwing money around just because you have it but making the correct buy.

By all means stick to what you're saying. Focus on the need to pay overs. Ignore that everyone understands that we're not an unbelievably attractive club atm. That's fine. You've got your point of view and it's just that. Your point of view. If you stopped your monologues you might actually see that we all understand what you're saying and agree to some degree with the point about paying overs.

I just think differently when it comes to it being good for the club. And I hope the club do also. Based on the examples given Ramien, Api etc. I believe the club understands this and won't thankfully be following your advice. Doesn't mean your wrong as only time will tell. But I'd back them over you. Sorry.
My point is I currently don't see us being able to sign "anyone" that's going to make a difference if wanted by other clubs if money isn't an incentive. This will change over the next 1-2 years (assuming we recruit players and have some sort of success, top 8's a good start) but our recruitment for 2021 starts in 9 days. If we don't sign those top players we're going to be signing players in the mould of Ramien, Koroisau, etc (decent/good players) and if they're wanted by other clubs they've shown they won't pick us over them. We're basically waiting for rejects that no other club wants or can fit into their side (currently Leilua). I think if we stick with this method we'll pick up 1-2 ~500k players a year (the stars need to align basically) but we aren't going to be able to fill the salary cap just doing this. From everything I've heard and want we want 2021 to be a year that we can be competitive in, I just don't seeing us being ready if that's the method we're going with. I understand that you agree with some of the things I'm saying but you don't want it to be this way and I don't want it either, I just find it really hard to see an alternative regarding recruitment which is why I'm going to die on this sword.
 

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My point is I currently don't see us being able to sign anyone that's going to make a difference if wanted by other clubs if money isn't an incentive. This will change over the next 1-2 years but our recruit for 2021 starts in 9 days. If we don't sign those top players we're going to be signing players in the mould of Ramien, Koroisau, etc (decent/good players) and if they're wanted by other clubs they've shown they won't pick us over them. We're basically waiting for rejects that no other club wants or can fit into their side (currently Leilua). I think if we stick with this method we'll pick up 1-2 ~500k players a year (the stars need to align basically) but we aren't going to be able to fill the salary cap just doing this. From everything I've heard and want we want 2021 to be a year that we can be competitive in, I just don't seeing us being ready if that's the method we're going with.
OK mate. Got ya. Believe me I understand your point. Don't agree with much you say but that doesn't mean you're wrong. By all means come banging at me if the club stuff everything up and you're proven right. Will always admit when I'm wrong. Until then ... peace out and convo over.
 

Natboy

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OK mate. Got ya. Believe me I understand your point. Don't agree with much you say but that doesn't mean you're wrong. By all means come banging at me if the club stuff everything up and you're proven right. Will always admit when I'm wrong. Until then ... peace out and convo over.
For two hours until he posts the same 2000 word essay with no paragraphs
 

bradtalo

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Mate. It's very hard to read your comments without wanting to punch the computer screen. Honestly. And I'm not even a violent man ... well, I wasn't until your posts.

It's just basic common sense so I don't know if you're trolling or just plain ... yeah ...

You want to throw 200,000+ on the top players. Lets say a top player is worth around 800,000 these days give or take. We need a centre, half, and hooker at a minimum. That's 2.4m + a further 600,000 on top to get them according to you taking us to 3m just for 3 players. More than 30% of our entire salary cap on 3 players.

That's an average of around 250,000 for the remainder of the 30 man squad. The average a NRL player is paid is apparently 330,00 so ... what does that mean for the rest of our squad?

And what about the balance of the team? The rest of the team will have to be on peanuts no? Three 'superstars' but the rest will have to suck it when you're paying 3 players nearly a million each.

What happens when we start playing well? Hell, let's say we even play so well we get into a final? Those lads who're on peanuts, I'm pretty sure they'll be knocking on the door for a raise. Not even the guys on peanuts but some of the fellas who've been around the club for a while. They'll be due some extra dough based on appearances, finals, etc. Hell, look at what's happening to the Raiders and they're smarter than you and not paying 200,000+ overs to attract top talent.

Paying that amount would absolutely sink us in the long-term. I hope to God you don't run or own a business! Hell. I hope that your wife controls the money in your household because Jesus you'd be broke within weeks.
No argument about needing a half or hooker but only problem is there's NONE available NOW and unfortunately we have to buy / plan now (sign from Nov 1) for 2021.

Foran IF he can stay on the field is still a great player. Cogger, Lewis and Wakeham are 3 potentially good prospects and we're probably in better shape there for choice than a few clubs. JMK definitely improved this year so would you agree that either by forced hand or choice for 2021 we'd be likely to keep 'somewhere' in our starting 13 for 2021 at this stage DWZ, Hopa, Remis Smith, Foran and Cogger. In the forwards Napa, JMK, CHN, Jackson, and Stimson ? If so that leaves spots for 2 backs and 1 middle forward (to give more impact than Tolman).

To make up for any lack at hooker or in the halves then wouldn't it make sense to sign the 3 BEST game breakers we can buy for those 3 positions ? I don't know why anyone would want anything less unless. DWZ is a good fullback but he doesn't really have a passing game. He'd be better on the wing where he can still return the ball from kicks with impact which is his strength. If we can't physically strengthen our spine in the halves or at hooker then we should strengthen 1 place we can - at fullback. The best option there / only potential fullback better than DWZ "available" has to be Latrell Mitchell (also a goalkicker which we need if Meaney can't make the team).

I remember Mitchell playing very well at fullback for the Roosters before he was moved to centre. I think that might have actually been his original position coming through the grades. IF media reports are true and the Roosters will only offer him 750 - 800K then we would need to offer 900K - 1M. Best middle forward available for 2021 would definitely have to be Fifita. According to reports the Broncos can't give him more than 700-800K as they are too top heavy on forwards already and need playmakers (maybe they'll chase Lewis). We'd be a chance at getting him for a MIL a season. That makes 1.9-2M. Then we definitely need a centre. According to reports Ramien is seeking around 500K. Leilua would also be 500K - 600K a season if we're desperate. So to upgrade our fullback, 1 centre and 1 middle forward considerably the cost would be 2.4-2.6M (not 3M). That still leaves 7.3-7.5M of the 9.9M cap for 2021 for the other 27 players some of who will be on minimum wage of $115,000 by 2021. Shed Holland (a few hundred K), Sue (a few hundred K), Montoya (a few hundred K), Elliott (a few hundrd K) and Tolman (anywhere between 500 to 650K). If we re-sign Foran for 2021 it definitely aint gonna be for anything close to the 1.2M he's getting in 2020. This will all free up some decent money.

Plenty of money left to sign some quality juniors or fresh reserves looking for a new start - players which we can only HOPE will one day be as good as Mitchell and Fifita have proven already. We can't even get the best juniors now though. The Roosters sign them. Why wait another 5 years pinning ALL our hopes that some of the "decent" juniors we're able to sign become something special when we can afford to sign 3 young fit players (some of the best in the NRL) in their prime now ? I want the Dogs to be top 4 by the end of 2021 don't you ?. Not going to happen if we fill those 3 spots with just average / decent players.
 
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bradyk

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No argument about needing a half or hooker but only problem is there's NONE available NOW and unfortunately we have to buy / plan now (sign from Nov 1) for 2021.

Foran IF he can stay on the field is still a great player. Cogger, Lewis and Wakeham are 3 potentially good prospects and we're probably in better shape there for choice than a few clubs. JMK definitely improved this year so would you agree that either by forced hand or choice for 2021 we'd be likely to keep 'somewhere' in our starting 13 for 2021 at this stage DWZ, Hopa, Remis Smith, Foran and Cogger. In the forwards Napa, JMK, CHN, Jackson, and Stimson ? If so that leaves spots for 2 backs and 1 middle forward (to give more impact than Tolman).

To make up for any lack at hooker or in the halves then wouldn't it make sense to sign the 3 BEST game breakers we can buy for those 3 positions ? I don't know why anyone would want anything less unless. DWZ is a good fullback but he doesn't really have a passing game. He'd be better on the wing where he can still return the ball from kicks with impact which is his strength. If we can't physically strengthen our spine in the halves or at hooker then we should strengthen 1 place we can - at fullback. The best option there / only potential fullback better than DWZ "available" has to be Latrell Mitchell (also a goalkicker which we need if Meaney can't make the team).

I remember Mitchell playing very well at fullback for the Roosters before he was moved to centre. I think that might have actually been his original position coming through the grades. IF media reports are true and the Roosters will only offer him 750 - 800K then we would need to offer 900K - 1M. Best middle forward available for 2021 would definitely have to be Fifita. According to reports the Broncos can't give him more than 700-800K as they are too top heavy on forwards already and need playmakers (maybe they'll chase Lewis). We'd be a chance at getting him for a MIL a season. That makes 1.9-2M. Then we definitely need a centre. According to reports Ramien is seeking around 500K. Leilua would also be 500K - 600K a season if we're desperate. So to upgrade our fullback, 1 centre and 1 middle forward considerably the cost would be 2.4-2.6M (not 3M). That still leaves 7.3-7.5M of the 9.9M cap for 2021 for the other 27 players some of who will be on minimum wage of $115,000 by 2021. Shed Holland (a few hundred K), Sue (a few hundred K), Montoya (a few hundred K), Elliott (a few hundrd K) and Tolman (anywhere between 500 to 650K). If we re-sign Foran for 2021 it definitely aint gonna be for anything close to the 1.2M he's getting in 2020. This will all free up some decent money.

Plenty of money left to sign some quality juniors or fresh reserves looking for a new start - players which we can only HOPE will one day be as good as Mitchell and Fifita have proven already. We can't even get the best juniors now though. The Roosters sign them. Why wait another 5 years pinning ALL our hopes that some of the "decent" juniors we're able to sign become something special when we can afford to sign 3 young fit players (some of the best in the NRL) in their prime now ? I want the Dogs to be top 4 by the end of 2021 don't you ?. Not going to happen if we fill those 3 spots with just average / decent players.
It doesn't matter how you write it they just don't get it. They don't want to spend the money but get upset when the Cowboys sign Holmes or that we're linked with Leilua (a reject player) for 500-600k.
 

Teddybear

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Is that a record post for most amount of words? Moderators....
 

Natboy

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It doesn't matter how you write it they just don't get it. They don't want to spend the money but get upset when the Cowboys sign Holmes or that we're linked with Leilua (a reject player) for 500-600k.
What money?
 

CaptainJackson

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Would be less school yard fights and Terry tough Karnts if a few more could respond like this. And agree cant see too many thinking we are the worst club to come to, speak to a few ex Dogs players and most say the Dogs looked after them the most out af any other club during their time in NRL.
I've heard that first hand from Bradley Clyde, he spoke very highly of our club
 

bradyk

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What money?
What are you talking about? We're currently sitting on ~1m for 2020 (Britt and Katoa signings probably have lowered that amount more closer to ~700k). If we don't/didn't spend it (e.g. front loading/topping up contracts, mercenary signings, etc.) we'd be sitting on ~2.5m for 2021. I'm saying we wouldn't sign Holmes or a player like Holmes if you and your buddies were in charge regardless of the year or if we had the money. We'd probably sign no one besides opportunist players actually and then cry that we can't compete :tonguewink:.
 
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DinkumDog

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It doesn't matter how you write it they just don't get it. They don't want to spend the money but get upset when the Cowboys sign Holmes or that we're linked with Leilua (a reject player) for 500-600k.
Nah, we get it, we just don’t agree.
To each their own.
 

Natboy

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What are you talking about? We're currently sitting on ~1m for 2020 (Britt and Katoa signings probably have lowered that amount more closer to ~700k). If we don't/didn't spend it (e.g. front loading/topping up contracts, mercenary signings, etc.) we'd be sitting on ~2.5m for 2021. I'm saying we wouldn't sign Holmes or a player like Holmes if you and your buddies were in charge regardless of the year or if we had the money. We'd probably sign no one besides opportunist players actually and then cry that we can't compete :tonguewink:.
You should do a bit more research.
You need to use minimum 95% of your cap each season. You also need to fill a squad of 30 with the salary cap, not 17
 

bradyk

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You should do a bit more research.
You need to use minimum 95% of your cap each season. You also need to fill a squad of 30 with the salary cap, not 17
You should do a bit more reading.
If we don't/didn't spend it (e.g. front loading/topping up contracts, mercenary signings, etc.) we'd be sitting on ~2.5m for 2021.
No shit Sherlock. No one has said the salary cap applies to just 13 players...
Players 18-30 are on minimum or close to minimum wage.
If we use the DT article regarding the Roosters and Raiders, the Roosters 18-30 on average = ~155k and the Raiders = ~115k if they were on the open market. All the calculations I've ever done have our 18-30 somewhere between those two figures.
 
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Natboy

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You should do a bit more reading.
If we don't/didn't spend it (e.g. front loading/topping up contracts, mercenary signings, etc.) we'd be sitting on ~2.5m for 2021.
No shit Sherlock. No one has said the salary cap applies to just 13 players...
Players 18-30 are on minimum or close to minimum wage.
If we use the DT article regarding the Roosters and Raiders, the Roosters 18-30 on average = ~155k and the Raiders = ~115k if they were on the open market. All the calculations I've ever done have our 18-30 somewhere between those two figures.
But you have to spend it haha. I’m glad you’re not my accountant
 
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