NO LOGIC or Commonsense applied

albatross

Kennel Enthusiast
Joined
Feb 3, 2017
Messages
2,210
Reaction score
2,564
The blame for our current situation (I mean our current squad and inflated contracts) belongs to Hasler, Castle and Dib's board, collectively. Plus we have a team of fringe first graders mostly and a fucked salary cap for at least the next 18 months. Very little of that is Pay's fault, although he did re-sign Lichaa which was the shittest of all signings as we all know.

But there is no improvement in the side, and little if any in individuals. Some seem to have gone backward. I don't agree with the attacks on Pay's character on here, which are over the top even if driven by passion for the club, but he isn't doing his job very well and isn't showing any signs of improvement himself. Why are our backrowers coming in for one game, then getting sacked or benched only to be replaced by the players they replaced? And Jackson is not an edge backrower and he's not a captain, although he leads in other ways. Stick him in the middle consistently and give him 50 flat out minutes. At least he can plug the middle, not run around like a headless chook like Elliott. Foran should be our captain right now - JJ will get over it.

And hearing Pay praising Tolman as the heart and soul of the team? Fuck, that's just accepting mediocrity. I had high hopes for Pay and I still like him as a bloke from what I see. I hope I'm wrong and a miracle happens (just a small one like a bit of structure in attack) but I'm happy if we say goodbye if nothing changes in the next few games.
 

D- voice

Kennel Addict
Joined
Mar 1, 2008
Messages
7,849
Reaction score
11,231
Who cares if we sack coaches before contract finishes. Is the money coming out of your pocket? Are you the owner? Just worry about what happens on the field. If that means we sack coaches before there contract ends then so be it. That is the business the NRL CLUBS are in.
This wont be an isolated incident if PAY gets the sack. It needed to be done at that time or Announce he won't be here next year. Which might have resulted in ZERO WINS by now.
I am sure you can count atleast 15 sackings of coaches in the last 6 to 7 years in the NRL if not more.
So relax.. there has to be a team that finishes LAST. Unfortunately after all the players we let go to allow us to be in the market for any player we want from 2021 then it had to be done.
when hasler got sacked you all said that we wont be competitive until 2021. I dont understand why this current situation is a shock.
Look at Bennett he has lost 5 games in a row now. Because he has had 2 or 3 big names out of the Souths team. SO SOUTHS SHOULD SACK HIM HE IS SHIT?

We have a team of fringe first graders at the best most reserve grade players. And some a learning to be mentally stronger. A few might make it.

So chill out wait till the wave comes... and you will say it was worth the wait.
Hasler has really caused this mess.
Dont BLAME PAY. He unfortunately is the coach became in reality no other coach would have accepted this knowing that they would be losing for 3 years. So PAY was desperate for the top job and he took it.
Give him time. He didnt take over a team LIKE The Storm or Roosters and is coming LAST then yes you can blame any coach for that.

It's just bad luck so suck it up
I don't and will not blame Pay...
But my only problem is, According to inside info from last year...He has communication and tactile problems with the players and they aren't responding well to him !!!
What do you think the solution is ?
Do we continue in this predicament ???
 

vegny

Kennel Enthusiast
Joined
May 12, 2017
Messages
1,655
Reaction score
1,186
Similar thread from same OP last week
 

RichoDog

Kennel Established
Joined
Apr 4, 2014
Messages
750
Reaction score
705
There is no winning culture - I agree I really have seen no player improve, to the point I could not care less who leaves from this roster - Pay despite a weak squad has failed to come up with any improvements - it is sadly time for a mass clean out with Pay the first to go !
 

TwinTurbo

Kennel Legend
Gilded
Joined
Oct 22, 2018
Messages
9,347
Reaction score
15,419
I really have seen no player improve
Repeating what I posted previously, because I keep reading posters that say they have seen no improvement when they are there, plain as day for anyone who wants to look and not pre judge.

We also need to be aware that many players form has demonstrably improved. You didn't give any examples to substantiate your claim, but I have previously and will continue to;
Meaney, used to be very suspect under kicks, has dropped one this year and that really wasn't his fault. In all of his game is now virtually error free, something that many Newcastle supports thought impossible.
Cogger, big improvement on his playing since he arrived, many at Newcastle were happy to see him leave.
Foran, playing better than he has for the last 3 years due to the amazing fitness and recovery work of the whole staff, working under the head coach.
JMK, learning the hooker's trade and improving every game, still only 23, people forget that Cook didn't really stand out as hooker until his mid 20's.
Ogden, played his first ever NRL game under Pay and has improved to the point where he's demanding his spot every game. He is also only 23 which is young for a prop developing.
RFM, played early NRL games under Pay and has improved to the point where he's in the mix for a spot every game.
To'Omaga, played his first ever NRL game under Pay and has improved to the point where he is knocking on the door for a regular NRL spot. He is also only 23.
Sue, I actually was very sceptical of his signing, thought he was barely CC quality, but he has stepped up a level and for his size now hits hard (a Pay trait that I seem to remember from his playing days).
Montoya, he's an enigma, was good in 2017, injured, then horrible in 2018 and thought he was goner, but FMD he's been way better than I thought possible this year. Still not brilliant or consistent of course.
Okunbor, Harper and Kotoa all not yet at consistent NRL standard, but way better players than they were when Pay and the coaching staff started coaching them.

I'm not suggesting that anyone of them is a world beater but that I have seen improvement in them, all since Pay took over as coach.
Go Dogs
 
Last edited:

wendog33

Kennel Immortal
Premium Member
Ladder Champion
Joined
Aug 6, 2016
Messages
24,743
Reaction score
27,950
We've all seen the illogical team changes from week to week eg Brown, CHN, Martin, Chricton, Lewis, Ofa, Montoya, Holland...many more, it's all over the place in a desperate, unprofessional attempt to spark something.

The players can't settle into any cohensive patterns. It's just a mess. Is expecting to have the best 17 picked for just one (1) game toooo much? Bloody ridiculous.

Drop Dean back to an assistant (if he must stay) because he just doesn't cut it with the mammoth job of resurrecting this club.

Face up to it and show the way forward instead of this death by a thousand cuts.
 

Trafford10

Kennel Addict
Gilded
Joined
Jun 26, 2015
Messages
6,417
Reaction score
5,241
Hasler's style was predictive and boring.

You could never question the defence of Des Hasler coached sides, but Des did fall way behind with our attack.

In regards to the "mess", the outdated playing style Des had was a mess, and since Pay took over its taken a larger plummet down the hole, when you thought it couldn't get any worse.

Des is not to blame for the salary cap mess. It all falls down to Rae Rae, Dib & the previous board of Dib puppets.

Ray Dib, Raelene Castle and the previous Dib Board will be remembered as the most damaging and toxic clan to run the Canterbury Bulldogs Rugby League Club in its history.

Now, i will get the Dib relatives and habibs quoting me, so to keep it short n simple, do not quote me, and kindly but abruptly go and fuck yourselves
Not for all six years! In fact up until the wheels fell off in round 24 2016 the team scored plenty of tries & points. Fell off dramatically in 2017 when yes attack was very poor and boring.

Year Point Scored
2017 360
2016 502
2015 522
2014 446
2013 529
2012 568
 

bradyk

Kennel Immortal
Premium Member
2 x NF H2H Champ
NF Top Scorer
Joined
Mar 24, 2019
Messages
15,750
Reaction score
18,940
in todays age all coaches have to be sacked while still on contract or after a 1 year extension because the media will upset the playing group being a distraction to the club and players.

pay needs to be sacked as soon as there is a decent replacement available, someone who can 100% do a better job actual coaching wise and help attract players to the club due to their past coaching record and relationships with players. i think this makes most sense to do after this season comes to a end.

hasler shouldn't of been sacked after being allowed to build the squad he wanted and not get 1 season to actually coach it - foran and woods signings. he should of been forced to go through the pain and damage he contributed to our salary cap state. i also think hasler is and was a better coach then pay so personally this change made no sense to me.

currently we don't have a marquee, or 2 marquee, players. we have a very average squad that is being overpaid. come 2021 we can fix and pay players what they're worth or just move them on and hopefully sign at least 2 players that are going to be game changes for us (e.g. tom and jake trbo and brandon smith).

because of the current state of the club, spoon contenders and uncertainty, we have to overpay for the first top players, marquee players, we bring to the club.
 

dogwhisperer

Kennel Addict
Joined
Sep 5, 2016
Messages
7,295
Reaction score
14,125
After reading the post I can't really work out if OP is pro or against Pay. It's like someone having an argument with themselves.


No Dogs
I like this "No Dogs" thing....It's something different for a change
 

TABOO

Kennel Enthusiast
Joined
Nov 13, 2018
Messages
2,740
Reaction score
3,921
So if Hasler is not to blame then how come he left Manly in exactly the same situation? Drowning in heavily back ended contracts, with no way of making the salary cap without shedding popular players (eg; Glenn Stewart) that the team really needed to keep. If you read the history and just substitute our name for Manly it scarily reads as almost exactly the same scenario. There was no Castle, Dib or other Bulldogs board members. The only common denominator is Hasler, and that's where the ultimate blame belongs.

Go Dogs
Sorry mate but shouldnt the Manly salary cap debacle have been a prime reason why Des shouldn't have had such control of the player contracts at the dogs?
For me, there is certainly blame to the previous administration for A) Not learning from the mess he left Manly in and still giving him the reigns of player signings and terms and B) Still signing off the proposed, hugely back ended contracts, knowing full well where they would leave us.
Unless I am mistaken that they need to also sign off the proposed contracts, I see no way that they can escape the blame here along with Des.
 

TwinTurbo

Kennel Legend
Gilded
Joined
Oct 22, 2018
Messages
9,347
Reaction score
15,419
Sorry mate but shouldnt the Manly salary cap debacle have been a prime reason why Des shouldn't have had such control of the player contracts at the dogs?
For me, there is certainly blame to the previous administration for A) Not learning from the mess he left Manly in and still giving him the reigns of player signings and terms and B) Still signing off the proposed, hugely back ended contracts, knowing full well where they would leave us.
Unless I am mistaken that they need to also sign off the proposed contracts, I see no way that they can escape the blame here along with Des.
You're not completely wrong, but there are timing considerations, once a bunch of back ended contracts are signed it's extremely difficult to do anything but to continue with the same practise. Timing wise Hasler leaves Manly and they go OK for that year, so there's no indication of problems to the Bulldogs Board. Even the second year after he leaves it all looks OK, so more back ended contracts get passed by the Board. But in the 3rd year the timebomb that is back ended contracts explodes in Manly's face with the usual consequences. The problem is by then it's too late, we are locked into back ended contracts and it's extremely painful to get off that treadmill, as we found out last year.

The old board isn't blameless by any stretch, because the ultimate pain of back ended contracts should have been obvious, even in the early years without Manly falling in the shit.

Personal opinion, Castle was always after the Australian Rugby Union gig (because the All Blacks laughed at her when she applied there). We were simply a stepping stone to that, so she didn't want any stains on her reputation and keeping up the back ended contracts was much more palpable than facing up to the pain if they were stopped. So she went along with Hasler, the line of least resistance. There is no inside source for this, just how I saw it going down at the time.

Go Dogs
 

Abu Dhabi Dog

Waterboy
Joined
Jun 23, 2019
Messages
30
Reaction score
15
So if Hasler is not to blame then how come he left Manly in exactly the same situation? Drowning in heavily back ended contracts, with no way of making the salary cap without shedding popular players (eg; Glenn Stewart) that the team really needed to keep. If you read the history and just substitute our name for Manly it scarily reads as almost exactly the same scenario. There was no Castle, Dib or other Bulldogs board members. The only common denominator is Hasler, and that's where the ultimate blame belongs.


Go Dogs
It is not the coaches job to draw up the contracts, sign off on the contracts and calculate and administer the salary cap and pay the wages.

The salary cap is on the administration department (i.e Board, CEO, etc) and the on field performances are on the coach.

So in regards to the salary cap, back-ended contracts, etc, the common denominator is the football board, and that's where the ultimate blame belongs

Bulldogs and Manly boards = Incompetent, Shit

Storm, Roosters and Souths boards = Smart, Capable, Business Minded, Savvy, Calculated, Competent
 

SweetFA

Kennel Enthusiast
Joined
Apr 23, 2017
Messages
1,149
Reaction score
1,060
So if Hasler is not to blame then how come he left Manly in exactly the same situation? Drowning in heavily back ended contracts, with no way of making the salary cap without shedding popular players (eg; Glenn Stewart) that the team really needed to keep. If you read the history and just substitute our name for Manly it scarily reads as almost exactly the same scenario. There was no Castle, Dib or other Bulldogs board members. The only common denominator is Hasler, and that's where the ultimate blame belongs.


Go Dogs
The ultimate blame lays with Greenberg, he allowed Hasler Carte Blanche; both the player roster & football department.
 

Mr Invisible

Banned
Joined
Apr 26, 2008
Messages
0
Reaction score
47
and THIS ladies and gentleman, is a perfect example why you should never post at 3:53AM!

That time of the night should be reserved for only 4 things:
a) sleeping.
b) having a mid sleep piss.
c) having a cheeky wank.
d) sexy times.

Nothing else.
 

Trafford10

Kennel Addict
Gilded
Joined
Jun 26, 2015
Messages
6,417
Reaction score
5,241
hasler shouldn't of been sacked after being allowed to build the squad he wanted and not get 1 season to actually coach it - foran and woods signings. he should of been forced to go through the pain and damage he contributed to our salary cap state. i also think hasler is and was a better coach then pay so personally this change made no sense to me.
Of course Des was sacked due to team performance, nothing to do with salary cap. If the old board had continued, we would not have heard a word about "salary cap crisis".

I had a look at Des' coaching record, between 2004 and 2017 he missed the 8 twice in 2004 first year at Manly when they finished 13th and 2017 when we finished 12th.
 

Spoonman84

Kennel Immortal
Premium Member
Joined
Oct 1, 2013
Messages
17,736
Reaction score
31,795
Of course Des was sacked due to team performance, nothing to do with salary cap. If the old board had continued, we would not have heard a word about "salary cap crisis".

I had a look at Des' coaching record, between 2004 and 2017 he missed the 8 twice in 2004 first year at Manly when they finished 13th and 2017 when we finished 12th.
2015 and 16 were real danger signs with Des as well despite the fact we made that 8 we were never in the hunt for the premiership and just made up the numbers.
 

TwinTurbo

Kennel Legend
Gilded
Joined
Oct 22, 2018
Messages
9,347
Reaction score
15,419
The ultimate blame lays with Greenberg, he allowed Hasler Carte Blanche; both the player roster & football department.
Again true, but the only common denominator in both (Manly and our) cap related back ended contracts was Hasler and the subsequent coaches (Toovey and Pay) plus us fans have suffered as a result.

Of course Des was sacked due to team performance, nothing to do with salary cap. If the old board had continued, we would not have heard a word about "salary cap crisis".
There was also a trigger point in late 2017 regarding the back ended value of contracts when added up for 2018 and then compared with the total salary cap. It was described to me at the time as an OH SHIT moment for the Board.

I don't have any problem separating the record of Hasler coached teams, at which he is one of the NTL's best, from his record as a salary cap manager, which is rather frightening. Of course they are not separate responsibilities, but it does bring into question how much his record is influenced by his manipulation of the salary cap with front loading, back ending and other nefarious practises.

Go Dogs
 

Blueandwhiteblood1968

Kennel Enthusiast
Joined
Mar 19, 2016
Messages
2,877
Reaction score
1,986
Who cares if we sack coaches before contract finishes. Is the money coming out of your pocket? Are you the owner? Just worry about what happens on the field. If that means we sack coaches before there contract ends then so be it. That is the business the NRL CLUBS are in.
This wont be an isolated incident if PAY gets the sack. It needed to be done at that time or Announce he won't be here next year. Which might have resulted in ZERO WINS by now.
I am sure you can count atleast 15 sackings of coaches in the last 6 to 7 years in the NRL if not more.
So relax.. there has to be a team that finishes LAST. Unfortunately after all the players we let go to allow us to be in the market for any player we want from 2021 then it had to be done.
when hasler got sacked you all said that we wont be competitive until 2021. I dont understand why this current situation is a shock.
Look at Bennett he has lost 5 games in a row now. Because he has had 2 or 3 big names out of the Souths team. SO SOUTHS SHOULD SACK HIM HE IS SHIT?

We have a team of fringe first graders at the best most reserve grade players. And some a learning to be mentally stronger. A few might make it.

So chill out wait till the wave comes... and you will say it was worth the wait.
Hasler has really caused this mess.
Dont BLAME PAY. He unfortunately is the coach became in reality no other coach would have accepted this knowing that they would be losing for 3 years. So PAY was desperate for the top job and he took it.
Give him time. He didnt take over a team LIKE The Storm or Roosters and is coming LAST then yes you can blame any coach for that.

It's just bad luck so suck it up
Being a long time supporter you never would expect to see such a strong club hit rock bottom and also knowing there are more tough times ahead it's easy to blame the coach, but maybe we'll see how the team goes once we get some Topline players which is what were missing, good post.
 
Top