Controversy Corner - Grahame Hughes on Dean Pay and whats going on

wendog33

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At one stage we had;

Reynolds, Hodko, Williams, Jackson, Brett and Josh Morris all playing Origin.

Kasiano, Eastwood, Pritchard were all Kiwi internationals.

Graham was the England captain

Regardless of peoples thoughts on what each player was/is worth they were paid in accordance to where they were at the time of their careers, i.e International and/or state representatives. Do not forget the clauses which are triggered once you make a rep team.

You than had the Mbye fiasco where his agent was shopping and squeezing every cent out of the dogs.

They had fafita signed at 850k per year before it fell through.

They paid overs for Foran and Woods.

It all accumulates at the end, and it eventually bites you back in the ass.

One thing you have to remember, that spastic Ray Dib was trying to get the coup together (all 15 NRL clubs) to push for a $10m cap when it was about $9m and than go up every year over a certain %

All 15 NRL clubs eventually gave Dib the finger, and he was warned on numerous occassions by Greenturd to work to a 9.2m cap.

The fuckwit thought he was bigger than life and that he would get all 15 nrl clubs up against the NRL to buckle to their requests.
Yes all those factors added together does start to make sense. Des bought his player loyalty with overs.

The roster had good success but not commensurate with the names on paper IMO and our core problems in the spine were not addressed....9 and 1 at least and most werent happy with 7 and 6 long term.

Dib had Wannabe Politis syndrome for sure and snookered himself and club.
 

Packstar

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Yes all those factors added together does start to make sense. Des bought his player loyalty with overs.

The roster had good success but not commensurate with the names on paper IMO and our core problems in the spine were not addressed....9 and 1 at least and most werent happy with 7 and 6 long term.

Dib had Wannabe Politis syndrome for sure and snookered himself and club.
Its frustrating as hell.

We have what 6-7 players off contract this year? They will obviously either be re-signed or replaced.
Hopefully we nab a couple of good players for next year and compensate $$ leftover by blooding a few juniors on minimum just to balance the books.

One thing for sure is, that we need to replace Pay ASAP
 

Mr Invisible

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Most of the backended contracts are gone but we still have Jackson, Hopoate, Tolman, Elliott and Foran who were re-signed under the previous "back-ended scheme". Foran was also signed on massive overs you like it or not.

I understand people who say, how is this bloke getting paid this much and so on, but thats the way the contracts were structured.

Eastwood was backended on 800k in his final year, what do you think the others have been backended to?
Understand what you are saying, but in recently times the NRL made clubs pay a player based on their approximate value. So you couldn't pay Ponga $110k for a year if he was worth $600k a season.

Surely based on that the NRL would require a player be paid a minimum wage for a year (even if backending - which I believe is now banned by the NRL).

Then there's the question of wealth. Looking at our lineup there are very few players that would be on big money even if it was backended.

With players like Mbye, are you saying that he could be on $1 million a season over 3 years, and in the first year we paid him $500k, meaning in the 2nd and 3rd years we owed a total of $2.5 million, and that despite being at Tigers, we could be paying $2 million of that $2.5 despite not being at the club?

I'd have thought when a player changes clubs and recontracts, any backending is done and buried (or carried by the new club).

Of course the easiest way around this all is the NRL to step in and say "if you change clubs the contract is terminated, any outstanding money on existing contract forfeited, and new club pays everything".

OR even better, they manage the cap for all clubs, clubs pay NRL, NRL pays players.

That said, that requires logic, which we know does not exist in NRL HQ.

Just for curiosities sake I wish Des did stay just to see how he would have dealt with this.

As you say it is all done now. I do hope this current board is exploring all options to get the cap back in shape because all we have heard is we are cooked till 2021.
That's how I feel. Put simply the club CANNOT drag this on past 2019. Memberships have fallen and if we enter 2020 with the same promises, then the club will be lucky to crack 10k members.

One thing you have to remember, that spastic Ray Dib was trying to get the coup together (all 15 NRL clubs) to push for a $10m cap when it was about $9m and than go up every year over a certain %

All 15 NRL clubs eventually gave Dib the finger, and he was warned on numerous occassions by Greenturd to work to a 9.2m cap.

The fuckwit thought he was bigger than life and that he would get all 15 nrl clubs up against the NRL to buckle to their requests.
Actually it was either Grant or Beattie (I think Grant) who shot his mouth off and advised clubs the cap was going to be $10 million.

Clubs then aimed recruitment based on $10 million only for Greenberg to announce (very late / close to seasons start mind you) that the cap would be $9.2 million.

By that stage many clubs were over. Make no mistake we were not the only ones caught out by that.
 

Como Dog

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I am pretty sure Hughes says im the interview that they are signing Israel Falaou on 300k a season for 3 seasons
That would be the best "Fuck you" to Raelene Castle.
 

bullanth

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All i want is a coach to pick the right guys and have some tactical nouse until our cap is right ,some of the shit pay does is just bizarre
Couldn't agree more,we some promising players,who need proper guidance from an experienced head coach,dean was a great player for us,but doesn't cut it as a coach
 

wendog33

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Couldn't agree more,we some promising players,who need proper guidance from an experienced head coach,dean was a great player for us,but doesn't cut it as a coach
This is true. We are behind the 8 ball in bringing these guys along. The quality of our mentors/coaching is atrocious it seems and we just can't develop them into fg standard...or ensure fg maintain their form or performances.

That is a complete breakdown in fundamental coaching. Who is accountable.

If we are to entrust our future to the Anderson Board, it looks like they have to hand Pay the team sheet at 3.30 so he can hand it out at 4....surely they can pick on form and let us see CHN, Martin, Jackson officially at lock for ONE GAME AT LEAST.

To see those 3 in their best positions against Dragons, then I can die happy :grinning:
 

Dogs Of War

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Toovey, seriously, sacked by 2 clubs and had a 26% winning record last team he coached. Went OK for the first 2 years at Manly with players recruited by others, but by year 3 with players he recruited, he failed miserably and was sacked mid season. Do we really want another Manly reject, one that was replaced by .................. Barrett.


Go Dogs
Not saying we should sign Toovey, but he had the same problem as Pay. Heavily backloaded contracts, that forced them to gamble on potential rather than established stars.

And he actually didn't coach Bradford. There was a problem with his paperwork, so he never got to coach them. Wikipedia is NOT always correct.
 

TwinTurbo

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What I cant fathom is who were the big earning players to cause Des to start back ending contracts.
One of the problems with back ended contracts is they aren't always for "big earners". For example the "average" player contract is $9.6m / 30 = $320k per year. So if we want to sign an "average" player for 3 years we could structure the back ended contract such that he gets the minimum in year 1 and 2 of $105k and then in year 3 that "average" player's contract is $750k. That's why the NRL from this year banned new contracts that are heavily back end loaded. There are still "old" back ended contracts around which will start expiring next year, so there may well be some good opportunities.

Go Dogs
 

TwinTurbo

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And he actually didn't coach Bradford. There was a problem with his paperwork, so he never got to coach them. Wikipedia is NOT always correct.
Source;
https://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/spo...toovey-ends-speculation-over-future-1-8858304

Toovey, 48, added: “It was a tough decision not to return to the Bradford Bulls for a second year.
“Last year was one of the most challenging years that I’ve had as a coach.
“The club and the fans made the experience one I will never forget."
Go Dogs
 

Dogs Of War

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He was initially rejected as he had Visa issues. Seems he took over 14th June 2017. So really only coached the backend of the season.

http://www.bradfordbulls.co.uk/arti...cially-appointed-head-coach-of-bradford-bulls

Not sure you want to read too much into a club that started the season on -12 points and had gone bankrupt the previous season.


Either way. There just aren't really any standout candidates for coaching the club. I actually had a look at NSW Cup coaches, and none are what you would want. So it would be stealing an assistant head coach like we did off another club. Not sure who is really up to standard.


EDIT: Checked out current assistant coaches and only one stands out. Jason Demetriou. Currently assistant to Bennett. But the bloke has done some great things coaching the Northern Devils (minor premiers both years he coached them and won comp 14) and Illawarra cutters (Won the comp in 16 only year he coached them). Was assistant coach to Paul Green in 2015 when the cowboys won the comp.

He is the sort of bloke we need to get in, and I understand he was heavily considered to replace Bennnett at the Broncos
 
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wendog33

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One of the problems with back ended contracts is they aren't always for "big earners". For example the "average" player contract is $9.6m / 30 = $320k per year. So if we want to sign an "average" player for 3 years we could structure the back ended contract such that he gets the minimum in year 1 and 2 of $105k and then in year 3 that "average" player's contract is $750k. That's why the NRL from this year banned new contracts that are heavily back end loaded. There are still "old" back ended contracts around which will start expiring next year, so there may well be some good opportunities.

Go Dogs
I know what you are saying and I accept the situation as it now stands. I mean who were the big earning players (contracts) "before" Des who created or necessitated him to start back ending as you described above.

I'd libe to see the figures and how it all evolved to the full on mess it did....don't even mention ratchet clauses....players asked for them because their money over 3 years was so lopsided I guess. We always conplained about how long the negotiating of contracts took to renew. Now we know. It's was a complete schemozle and ruinous to the club.
 

JackDog

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You still do not get it.

Its how they have structured the payments in accordance with the agreed contract.

I.e Greg Eastwood was given a 2 year extension at 900k for the 2 years, so when you break it down, it should be 450k per year. The way they structured Gregs contract was 100k for that first year and 800k the second year.

They did the same with Graham, Mbye, Klemmer, Morris Boys, Jackson, Hoppa and the likes.

They just kept stacking the roster and backending contracts 3-4 years down the track.

I remember very well a few years back it was mentioned that the dogs had re-signed Mbye for $3m over 4 years which comes to about 750k per year, but again, it was not structured like that. It was heavily backended.

I know its hard to comprehend and understand, because from a business point of view, it was ALWAYS going to backfire.

The only way it would work or the only way you would accept it, is if you nabbed a premiership or two over that 4-5 year period and than having to succumb to a couple of lean years.

Most of the backended contracts are gone but we still have Jackson, Hopoate, Tolman, Elliott and Foran who were re-signed under the previous "back-ended scheme". Foran was also signed on massive overs you like it or not.

I understand people who say, how is this bloke getting paid this much and so on, but thats the way the contracts were structured.

Eastwood was backended on 800k in his final year, what do you think the others have been backended to?
This can be made to work by moving the player on in their final year, even if we pay half their inflated final year salary. We then replace him with another player on a backended deal. Pay new player peanuts in their first year at same time as playing half old player's final year inflated salary.

Of course if you have multiple players on backended contracts that you can't move on in their final year... you get the basket case we have become post-Des&Dib
 

TwinTurbo

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He was initially rejected as he had Visa issues. Seems he took over 14th June 2017. So really only coached the backend of the season.
http://www.bradfordbulls.co.uk/arti...cially-appointed-head-coach-of-bradford-bulls
Not sure you want to read too much into a club that started the season on -12 points and had gone bankrupt the previous season.
For completeness, ESL season 2017 was 30 game and he coached 26, so only missed 4 games.
Either way. There just aren't really any standout candidates for coaching the club. I actually had a look at NSW Cup coaches, and none are what you would want. So it would be stealing an assistant head coach like we did off another club. Not sure who is really up to standard.
Agree, there simply aren't a lot of quality, experienced NRL coaches available this year or next. Of the current coaches I think only McGregor is of contract at the end of this year and next year it's Brennan, Brown and Stuart. But after that only Cleary, Kearney, Robinson and Seibold have contracts past 2021.

Go Dogs
 
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froggy

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Couldn't agree more,we some promising players,who need proper guidance from an experienced head coach,dean was a great player for us,but doesn't cut it as a coach
This notion that Dean Pay was a Canterbury great doesn't sit well with me.

He played 106 games for us only. That is not greatness. He then did the dirty on us and in the cover of night he and his three mates shafted us and went to Parra for cash. He played 76 games for them. I bet Parra don't class him as a former great.

To me he was in the right place at the right time. Dib was in a shit position and had to look at restoring faith with the supporters and thought bringing someone in to coach that had played here would cover the Hasler debacle.

Well the results speak for themselves. Ever since then we have played 36 games for 11 wins. Enough said
 

BulldogsNRL

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I STILL WANT TO KNOW WHERE THE FUCKS THE MONEY AND IF THEY DO HAVE MONEY FUCKING SPEND IT
 

Trafford10

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At one stage we had;

Reynolds, Hodko, Williams, Jackson, Brett and Josh Morris all playing Origin.

Kasiano, Eastwood, Pritchard were all Kiwi internationals.

Graham was the England captain

Regardless of peoples thoughts on what each player was/is worth they were paid in accordance to where they were at the time of their careers, i.e International and/or state representatives. Do not forget the clauses which are triggered once you make a rep team.

You than had the Mbye fiasco where his agent was shopping and squeezing every cent out of the dogs.

They had fafita signed at 850k per year before it fell through.

They paid overs for Foran and Woods.

It all accumulates at the end, and it eventually bites you back in the ass.

One thing you have to remember, that spastic Ray Dib was trying to get the coup together (all 15 NRL clubs) to push for a $10m cap when it was about $9m and than go up every year over a certain %

All 15 NRL clubs eventually gave Dib the finger, and he was warned on numerous occassions by Greenturd to work to a 9.2m cap.

The fuckwit thought he was bigger than life and that he would get all 15 nrl clubs up against the NRL to buckle to their requests.
Wasn't there three other clubs also pushing hard for a $10m salary cap? It wasn't just Dib. But you are right that he fucked up big time counting his chickens.
 

ash160

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This notion that Dean Pay was a Canterbury great doesn't sit well with me.

He played 106 games for us only. That is not greatness. He then did the dirty on us and in the cover of night he and his three mates shafted us and went to Parra for cash. He played 76 games for them. I bet Parra don't class him as a former great.

To me he was in the right place at the right time. Dib was in a shit position and had to look at restoring faith with the supporters and thought bringing someone in to coach that had played here would cover the Hasler debacle.

Well the results speak for themselves. Ever since then we have played 36 games for 11 wins. Enough said
He was a club great imo obviously not is the same class as Terry Lamb or Steve Mortimer and those guys but he was part of doggies premiership winning side. He left along with Jason Smith, Jimmy Dymock and Jarrod McCracken as part of the superleague wars, joining Parra who were ARL aligned. there’s a lot more to that story...it was a pretty shitty period for rugby league.
 
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SweetFA

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Even if we are theres no way either would be on anywhere near $1 million. So again, the numbers do not add up.


Theres no way most of them are on big coin, and certainly not enough to cause the claimed issues.


It's an excuse. They renewed the coaches contract.

Correct me if I'm wrong but the signatures of Meaney, Sue, Saddler, Olive, Suli, Cogger CHN, Napa, Priest, Lichaa Mk2 are all on the current mobs head.


For starters you CANNOT backend a contract past a players contracted period. In other words if you contract a player from 2017 to 2020, you CANNOT backend the contract to pay them in 2021 or 2022.

Kasiano - our final payment was $700k towards his contract in 2018. He is off the books.
Reynolds - NOT contracted past 2018 to the Bulldogs. Was not offered a contract renewal.
Brett and Josh Morris - NOT contracted past 2018. Was not offered a contract renewal.
Klemmer - mutual contract termination, ZERO contribution.
Suli - mutual contract termination, ZERO contribution.
Woods and Mbye - would potentially be the only players we are contributing towards outside the club. Flanagan took advantage of our club and fucked us hard, so we would be paying more of Woods salary. Mbye I doubt we are paying more than $300k towards.
We’re contributing $175k for Woods to play for the Sharks
 
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