V'Landys will destroy NRL by adding more teams

Philistine

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If an eighteen year old with probably no other skills can earn $85000 for playing games, I am struggling to view that as peanuts. What can you earn for holding up a stop/go sign?

Apart from that, does the AFL stipulate that draft picks must be paid minimum wage? I doubt if that is even legal. Suppose I am an 18 year old Canterbury supporter (OK I have got a vivid imagination) and a high draft pick, and the Cowboys pick me and offer me $85000. What is my response going to be? How about - "you have jumped through numerous hoops, even possibly to the extent of deliberately losing games, just to earn the right to pick me. You obviously need me more than I need you. I would rather play for the Dogs, but if you put a zero on the end I will think about it." Then by the usual process of negotiation. we arrive at a price that is acceptable to both sides.

Suppose I really hate the idea of moving to North Queensland. If I sit out for 2 years, everybody loses. The Cowboys don't get their player and I don't get any money. The obvious way out is for Cowboys management to say to the Dogs "our draft pick wants to play for you. If we release him to you, what can you give us by way of compensation?" Eventually, by negotiation, everybody gets more or less what they want.
 

Rod67

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Please help me out here, how does having 2 Divisions change anything in regards to the Chooks, Penrith and Melbourne dominating? They will be in the top division, Panthers will get their juniors from the same sources, Bellamy will still be there, Politis's wallet won't get any smaller, nor will the Chooks sombrero. The results will still be the same, they will just play less teams more often, big farkin deal.

Surely the NRL will not give the 2nd Division team the same amount as they give the 1st Division teams, so they will get stronger and the 2nd Division teams will get weaker. The broadcast rights will be drastically less in total due to less local teams in 1st Div and even more drastically less to split amongst the 2nd Div teams. As a result the 2nd Div teams won't have enough money from advertisers/sponsors to support their local junior leagues so they will die. Which means less juniors in total to graduate to the NRL level.

I have real trouble understanding how a 2nd Div competition will ever survive, the media is going to ignore it and the teams that are in it will fall by the wayside without the ~$14m the NRL currently gives all teams and the support that they currently enjoy from advertiser/sponsors.


Always a Bulldog
All I’m saying is there has to be an alternative than having someone like P V’L introduce another team to an already long season and and has failed previously.

When there were 20 teams back in ‘95 it made the comp a joke. If you hadn’t won a game after 5 rounds your season was over.

As for those teams remaining stronger if the 1st Division was reduced to 12 or 14 teams, that would be only if TPA’s a stay they way they currently are.

Something has to better than just adding more teams, which has been proven not work and only dilutes the talent and weakens the competition.
 

Rod67

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If an eighteen year old with probably no other skills can earn $85000 for playing games, I am struggling to view that as peanuts. What can you earn for holding up a stop/go sign?

Apart from that, does the AFL stipulate that draft picks must be paid minimum wage? I doubt if that is even legal. Suppose I am an 18 year old Canterbury supporter (OK I have got a vivid imagination) and a high draft pick, and the Cowboys pick me and offer me $85000. What is my response going to be? How about - "you have jumped through numerous hoops, even possibly to the extent of deliberately losing games, just to earn the right to pick me. You obviously need me more than I need you. I would rather play for the Dogs, but if you put a zero on the end I will think about it." Then by the usual process of negotiation. we arrive at a price that is acceptable to both sides.

Suppose I really hate the idea of moving to North Queensland. If I sit out for 2 years, everybody loses. The Cowboys don't get their player and I don't get any money. The obvious way out is for Cowboys management to say to the Dogs "our draft pick wants to play for you. If we release him to you, what can you give us by way of compensation?" Eventually, by negotiation, everybody gets more or less what they want.
This is worth a read as I remember it clearly at the time.

 

Philistine

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This is worth a read as I remember it clearly at the time.

You're right. It is worth a read. Thanks for posting it.

This thread is tossing around ideas to fix up the strong-club weak-club phenomenon that is ruining the competition, and I see a draft as a means of steering new young talent towards the clubs that need it most. It seems that the 1991 draft was all about established players nominating themselves in the draft to manoeuvre a pay rise and club officials trying to strengthen their rosters by screwing every other club. In other words - business as usual!

This pattern has been repeating since 1908. Club officials set out to screw their opposite numbers in other clubs to chase advantages that are often not worth the trouble taken. Coaches continually come up with new and innovative ways to breach the intent of the rules while staying just inside the letter, and the league changes those rules every five minutes to counter the coaches' initiatives.

I love the footy but it is run by boofheads,
 

Rod67

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Absolutely gobsmacked when I saw this

Can this guy get himself a gig or what. He can get into places water can’t and a man with many hats.


V’landys’ royal ride after lunch with the Queen


Peter V'landys says it was a “humbling experience” to be part of the royal procession at Royal Ascot.

Unbelievable!
 

Philistine

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Absolutely gobsmacked when I saw this
You and me both.

How did our game get to this point? It was started in about 1895 by a group of working men who were tired of the condescension, class distinction and shamateurism that went on within the ranks of the more aristocratic rugby union. This used to be a working man's game. Now we have become what our predecessors rebelled against.
 

TwinTurbo

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All I’m saying is there has to be an alternative than having someone like P V’L introduce another team to an already long season and and has failed previously.
There is an endless list of things in the world that we believe are wrong. which is all very well, but of no use whatsoever without a better alternative.

When there were 20 teams back in ‘95 it made the comp a joke. If you hadn’t won a game after 5 rounds your season was over.
That's not factually correct, St George only won 1 game in the first 6 rounds and still made the finals. We finished 6th and yet we won the Grand Final.

As for those teams remaining stronger if the 1st Division was reduced to 12 or 14 teams, that would be only if TPA’s a stay they way they currently are.
Genuine TPA's aren't really an issue, brown paper bags, jobs for the family, gifts and guaranteed roles post playing are the real issues.

Something has to better than just adding more teams, which has been proven not work and only dilutes the talent and weakens the competition.
How exactly has it "proven not to work", Using 1995 as an example, the Cowboys finished dead last and won a premiership, finished runners up twice and only have 3 wooden spoons. A pretty good example of the success of expansion.

It is well proven that more teams attracts more juniors, that larger talent pool then graduates. This is particulary relevant when we include geography. Conversely reducing the number of teams reduces the talent pool. There is no lack of talent, the problem is the concentration of that talent. Reducing the number of teams will not fix that problem.


Always a Bulldog
 

TwinTurbo

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If an eighteen year old with probably no other skills can earn $85000 for playing games, I am struggling to view that as peanuts. What can you earn for holding up a stop/go sign?

Apart from that, does the AFL stipulate that draft picks must be paid minimum wage? I doubt if that is even legal. Suppose I am an 18 year old Canterbury supporter (OK I have got a vivid imagination) and a high draft pick, and the Cowboys pick me and offer me $85000. What is my response going to be? How about - "you have jumped through numerous hoops, even possibly to the extent of deliberately losing games, just to earn the right to pick me. You obviously need me more than I need you. I would rather play for the Dogs, but if you put a zero on the end I will think about it." Then by the usual process of negotiation. we arrive at a price that is acceptable to both sides.

Suppose I really hate the idea of moving to North Queensland. If I sit out for 2 years, everybody loses. The Cowboys don't get their player and I don't get any money. The obvious way out is for Cowboys management to say to the Dogs "our draft pick wants to play for you. If we release him to you, what can you give us by way of compensation?" Eventually, by negotiation, everybody gets more or less what they want.
$85k is the max, the minimum for a full time player is ~$15k, about the same as the dole. The average road worker ears $78k per year, plus overtime and lots of penalty rates, shift, weather etc. Quite common for them to earn well over $100k.

A draft only works when the payments are fixed, when variable payments are available it introduces all sorts of avenues for rorting, sign on bonuses, free cars, housing etc. Do we really want a team tanking and then "selling" their first round pick to the Chooks as Politis offered a free Bentley (ala SBW)?

Did I mention the rorting the goes on in the seeding of players in the draft, FMD that would make your brain bleed. As an example, it's not unusual for teams to pay players to tank in the season before their draft so they get a lower seeding.

If you hate the idea of moving to North Qld then you go and play Union or Soccer for 2 years, athletics, tertiary education, or rotate stop go signs for the same amount.


Always a Bulldog
 

SPEARTAKVIDREFS

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Here's a different angle.
Perhaps the Clubs are responsible for the lack of quality players in the competition.

Lets just take the Dogs for example.
From powerhouse in the 80s to cellar dwellers the last 5 years.
Why?
Miss management.
Contributed to lack of both junior and senior development.
When was the last time the Dogs developed a player good enough for Origin?

What have the Tigers given the game in recent years? Who has developed in leaps and bounds under their coaching?

Penrith seem to be developing players that they cant afford to hang onto which is great for the rest of the comp.

I believe there is a lack of player talent in the competition.
From the last month or so, it appears there is a lack of quality coaches (or are they really team managers).

Hopefully ex players like Slater and Cameron Smith transistion through various coaching rolls as the years roll on to a place where they may become head coaches some day. Hopefully there will be more.
 

Rod67

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There is an endless list of things in the world that we believe are wrong. which is all very well, but of no use whatsoever without a better alternative.

I’ve given an alternative that I believe is better than adding more teams to an already long season that will only further dilute the overall talent. There just isn’t enough legitimate first grade players even now as has been proven over the last 4 to 5 years.

If you’re happy seeing the same each and every year then you must be easily pleased as many supporters of underperforming teams are sick and tired of seeing the same teams dominating.
 

Rod67

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Here's a different angle.
Perhaps the Clubs are responsible for the lack of quality players in the competition.

Lets just take the Dogs for example.
From powerhouse in the 80s to cellar dwellers the last 5 years.
Why?
Miss management.
Contributed to lack of both junior and senior development.
When was the last time the Dogs developed a player good enough for Origin?

What have the Tigers given the game in recent years? Who has developed in leaps and bounds under their coaching?

Penrith seem to be developing players that they cant afford to hang onto which is great for the rest of the comp.

I believe there is a lack of player talent in the competition.
From the last month or so, it appears there is a lack of quality coaches (or are they really team managers).

Hopefully ex players like Slater and Cameron Smith transistion through various coaching rolls as the years roll on to a place where they may become head coaches some day. Hopefully there will be more.
Agree, the best talent scout ever was Peter Moore. We did so well through his Eagle eye for talent. That carried through with Chris Anderson and especially Steven Folkes as they both married into the “family”.

Game has changed a lot since those days but hopefully under Potter we can get back to those glory days.
 

TwinTurbo

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There is an endless list of things in the world that we believe are wrong. which is all very well, but of no use whatsoever without a better alternative.

I’ve given an alternative that I believe is better than adding more teams to an already long season that will only further dilute the overall talent. There just isn’t enough legitimate first grade players even now as has been proven over the last 4 to 5 years.

If you’re happy seeing the same each and every year then you must be easily pleased as many supporters of underperforming teams are sick and tired of seeing the same teams dominating.
Nothing that you have suggested will fix that problem. The teams (Chooks) that better manage their Salary Caps (Sombreros) will always attract the best players, the next level down of players will always want to play with the best players. The teams (Melbourne) with the best coaches will always attract the the best players. The teams (Penrith) with the largest junior talent pool and the best pathways will always promote the best players.

Reducing the number of teams, having 2 Divisions, etc will not fix any of that. A draft might help a bit but there are so many issues with that, particularly the NRLPA would never agree to it, that it will won't happen either.


Always a Bulldog
 

Rod67

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Nothing that you have suggested will fix that problem. The teams (Chooks) that better manage their Salary Caps (Sombreros) will always attract the best players, the next level down of players will always want to play with the best players. The teams (Melbourne) with the best coaches will always attract the the best players. The teams (Penrith) with the largest junior talent pool and the best pathways will always promote the best players.

Reducing the number of teams, having 2 Divisions, etc will not fix any of that. A draft might help a bit but there are so many issues with that, particularly the NRLPA would never agree to it, that it will won't happen either.


Always a Bulldog
I’ve given a suggestion you’ve given 0.

I don’t believe it has anything to do with better managing their salary caps. TPA’s are the problem as those clubs you’ve mentioned have powerbrokers, Politis being a classic example of that, to attract the better players through TPA’s.

Drafts will never see the light of day again in the NRL as Terry Hill and a few other players from the early ‘90’s took the ARL to court for it being a restraint of trade and won.
 

SPEARTAKVIDREFS

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Agree, the best talent scout ever was Peter Moore. We did so well through his Eagle eye for talent. That carried through with Chris Anderson and especially Steven Folkes as they both married into the “family”.

Game has changed a lot since those days but hopefully under Potter we can get back to those glory days.
Im just glad we have stability and unity now at management level.
Cant build anything otherwise.
As painful as it is after the past 5 years I have come to accept its still a long road ahead. Is what it is.
 

TwinTurbo

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I’ve given a suggestion you’ve given 0.
As previously posted I don't have any suggestions, I can't think of anything that would make what you are describing better. Aside from more personally intrusive policing of the Cap, which the payers and their families would strongly object to. Something like the "Unexplained Wealth" Law recently enacted in NSW. A question such as "Mr Cameron Smith how exactly did you pay for that boat"?

I don’t believe it has anything to do with better managing their salary caps. TPA’s are the problem as those clubs you’ve mentioned have powerbrokers, Politis being a classic example of that, to attract the better players through TPA’s.
I guess you missed the sarcasm.

Drafts will never see the light of day again in the NRL as Terry Hill and a few other players from the early ‘90’s took the ARL to court for it being a restraint of trade and won.
It's boring read, but the High Court Judgement is actually interesting, the NRL lost the Federal Court appeal basically because they could not show that the restraint was reasonably related to the objectives of the League or the clubs and that it afforded no more than adequate protection to the interests of the League and the clubs.

Noting that at that time the teams did not have equal salary caps, due to the poor financial position of some of the clubs at the time. Which is not the current situation. Plus that draft involved all players off contract, whereas a draft only for emerging NRL players would probably satisfy the legal requirements. The big hurdle would be that NRL would have to undertake to fund all junior development, take it away from the clubs. Otherwise a club could have invested a lot of time, money and effort into developing a player and have them go elsewhere in the draft.

As a result, not only does the RLPA object to a draft on behalf of the players, the clubs also object.

Always a Bulldog
 

Philistine

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.....the best talent scout ever was Peter Moore. We did so well through his Eagle eye for talent.
Bullfrog was a benevolent dictator. He made the decisions - but always in the best interests of the club! Since he has been gone, there have been various factions, groups of board members, former players and the like, all jockeying for position, and all pushing their own particular barrows. Now we have Gus, another benevolent dictator, who will get his own way on all matters football. Count on it! We might have to wait a while longer, but the good times are coming back.
 

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It's abundantly clear from recent years there are 2 elite teams in the Storm and Panthers followed by Souths, when they're at full strength they could beat any team, the Rorters are still competitive but aren't the team they were a few years back as time catches with them. Cowboys are having a good season but can they keep it up, doubt it. Eels are to inconsistent and don't have the depth of the Storm and Penrith. Broncos have been the most improved team this season while Cronulla are hot and cold and Raiders are playing well enough to make the 8 but are making up the numbers, the rest aren't anywhere near competitive.

Why then do we need to expand the competition when there clearly isn't enough talent to go around 16 clubs let alone 17.

Understand they want to expand the game but they would be better off having a 1st and 2nd division competition like they do in English Football (soccer) or alternatively have conferences like they do in US team sports.

Adding more teams further weakens an already top heavy competition and that was clearly evident prior the Super League war when Quayle and Arthurson thought it was wise to expand the competition from 16 to 20 teams back in 1995 when the Warriors, Cowboys, South Queensland Crushers and Western Reds were included. This was the catalyst for the Super League wars. Crushers, Western Reds didn't last long North Sydney were kicked out in 1999 and Balmain and Wests merged to form the West Tigers from 2000. St George merged with Illawarra in 1998 and the Storm entered the comp the same year.

V'landys is doing the same in the NRL as he has done in horse racing where he just wants more revenue, which is great but not at the expense of the quality of the sport(s). V'landys has a background in wagering and knows the more people bet on sports or racing the more money that makes for them but the game is more the poorer for this. He has saturated Sydney Saturday horse racing by increasing the number of races from 8 to 10 and those extra races are made up of country horses that nobody knows anything about but he knows mugs will bet on 2 flies crawling up a wall so he introduces more races and now NRL games for people to lose their money on.

I believe LESS is MORE! Have the top 12 or 14 (no more) in first division and have a 2nd division where the top two teams are promoted the following year and the below 2 teams are demoted from 1st division. This would make the season more interesting and have more people following if they bring in more teams to make up a 12 team 2nd division competition.
The less than 16 teams idea has merit, however it may mean they try and merge more teams, or drop them, and probably Sydney teams. Might be scary for our existence. I dont wanna be the Canterbury panthers or wests bulldogs or something
 

TwinTurbo

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The less than 16 teams idea has merit, however it may mean they try and merge more teams, or drop them, and probably Sydney teams. Might be scary for our existence. I dont wanna be the Canterbury panthers or wests bulldogs or something
How have the previous NRL mergers gone?

Wests Tigers, still a basket case, with waring factions killing coaching careers like ducks at the Easter Show and the SW rugby league growth area badly overlooked.

Manly Norths, how long did that least, 2 years, so far apart now that the Bears are a Roosters feeder club.

StGeorge Illawarra, probably the best of the 3, but still hardly successful, with similar issues to Tigers, split factions, fighting over funding and splitting games between Wollongong and Kogarah.

The tribalism is too strong, not just fans but administrators, it's been 22/23 years since those mergers and they have been a pretty dismal failure. That's for the NRL and for the clubs themselves.

I doubt that the NRL would take us on, we have too much money, they would go broke defending the legal challenges.


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Rod67

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The less than 16 teams idea has merit, however it may mean they try and merge more teams, or drop them, and probably Sydney teams. Might be scary for our existence. I dont wanna be the Canterbury panthers or wests bulldogs or something

History says the opposite. Since 1995 when the competition grew from 16 to 20 teams it became an absolute joke of a competition as there were way to many teams in the one competition. What happened? Two of those new clubs folded in the Western Reds and the Queensland Crushers while other teams had to merge.

Teams won’t have to merge with less clubs. How? If all clubs new in advance when the new competition was to start they’d all be aware that in the Final year of the current format they would be demoted to 2nd Division but then have the opportunity to promoted back into 1st Division by winning the 2nd Division competition and the then wooden spoon in first division is demoted to 2nd Division. Other clubs could come into the 2nd division from around the country and that way the game then gets national exposure.

Just a thought as opposed to diluting the talent into the one competition as will be the case next year when it goes to 17 teams.
 

Dogs Life

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It's abundantly clear from recent years there are 2 elite teams in the Storm and Panthers followed by Souths, when they're at full strength they could beat any team, the Rorters are still competitive but aren't the team they were a few years back as time catches with them. Cowboys are having a good season but can they keep it up, doubt it. Eels are to inconsistent and don't have the depth of the Storm and Penrith. Broncos have been the most improved team this season while Cronulla are hot and cold and Raiders are playing well enough to make the 8 but are making up the numbers, the rest aren't anywhere near competitive.

Why then do we need to expand the competition when there clearly isn't enough talent to go around 16 clubs let alone 17.

Understand they want to expand the game but they would be better off having a 1st and 2nd division competition like they do in English Football (soccer) or alternatively have conferences like they do in US team sports.

Adding more teams further weakens an already top heavy competition and that was clearly evident prior the Super League war when Quayle and Arthurson thought it was wise to expand the competition from 16 to 20 teams back in 1995 when the Warriors, Cowboys, South Queensland Crushers and Western Reds were included. This was the catalyst for the Super League wars. Crushers, Western Reds didn't last long North Sydney were kicked out in 1999 and Balmain and Wests merged to form the West Tigers from 2000. St George merged with Illawarra in 1998 and the Storm entered the comp the same year.

V'landys is doing the same in the NRL as he has done in horse racing where he just wants more revenue, which is great but not at the expense of the quality of the sport(s). V'landys has a background in wagering and knows the more people bet on sports or racing the more money that makes for them but the game is more the poorer for this. He has saturated Sydney Saturday horse racing by increasing the number of races from 8 to 10 and those extra races are made up of country horses that nobody knows anything about but he knows mugs will bet on 2 flies crawling up a wall so he introduces more races and now NRL games for people to lose their money on.

I believe LESS is MORE! Have the top 12 or 14 (no more) in first division and have a 2nd division where the top two teams are promoted the following year and the below 2 teams are demoted from 1st division. This would make the season more interesting and have more people following if they bring in more teams to make up a 12 team 2nd division competition.
We would be in the second division then
 
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