Coronavirus.

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KambahOne

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I started my post by saying the US death toll is pretty bad. No doubt we can not describe the U.S as doing 'well'. I also think some of Trump's comments and narratives around Covid have not been helpful, so of course I find fault with him too.

But I think far too much, the outcome for the U.S. is attributed entirely to Trump without discussing why (for example) New York has the WORST results of any place on earth.

However, once you get past the initial assessment of doing well or bad - the question is why they didn't do well. A lot of the actual policy and response to the virus was lead by counties and states who have direct response for health.

Take NY as an example - a significant amount of NY's disasterous outcomes was Andrew Cuomo sending elderly people who tested positive back into aged care centres to further infect other elderly.
Find fault? C'mon man seriously, Trump completely and utterly mishandled this virus and continues to do so. He could of saved thousands of lives by simply stating wearing a mask will help. But no, he wanted to be Mr Tough Guy and show the world and his dumb arse followers he knows better than the experts. Which of course he doesn't.

From every single rally Trump has held since it hit, COVID has spread. By not demanding his attendees wear masks he is complicit in spreading this virus. Find fault...mate your veiled defence of this idiot is astounding.
 

Dawgfather

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Find fault? C'mon man seriously, Trump completely and utterly mishandled this virus and continues to do so. He could of saved thousands of lives by simply stating wearing a mask will help. But no, he wanted to be Mr Tough Guy and show the world and his dumb arse followers he knows better than the experts. Which of course he doesn't.

From every single rally Trump has held since it hit, COVID has spread. By not demanding his attendees wear masks he is complicit in spreading this virus. Find fault...mate your veiled defence of this idiot is astounding.
I'm not defending Trump. I'm just pointing out that many people were responsible for bad decisions.

My personal take on masks is that there is conflicting evidence whether they provide any significant defense against COVID. I wear one when I'm forced to (attending a doctors office or a hospital for example), but apart from that I don't wear one.
 

Dawgfather

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Also there are any number of examples where countries / jurisdictions have mandated masks only for infection numbers to increase significantly within the period following the mandate of masks.

I'm not saying masks don't work, but I see enough conflicting evidence to make me seriously question their effectiveness.
 

Mr 95%

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Find fault? C'mon man seriously, Trump completely and utterly mishandled this virus and continues to do so. He could of saved thousands of lives by simply stating wearing a mask will help. But no, he wanted to be Mr Tough Guy and show the world and his dumb arse followers he knows better than the experts. Which of course he doesn't.

From every single rally Trump has held since it hit, COVID has spread. By not demanding his attendees wear masks he is complicit in spreading this virus. Find fault...mate your veiled defence of this idiot is astounding.
Don’t forget when he was elected he dismantled to a great extent the Pandemic Response Team..which would have been very useful when Covid-19 hit!
 

Hacky McAxe

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"We have had more infection than we thought. And hospitals have coped extraordinarily well," said Professor Elizabeth Gardiner, head of the Australian National University's cancer department and a co-author of the paper.

That put into question whether stricter lockdowns, such as Melbourne's current stage four restrictions, were necessary, she said.
I saw this earlier. It's great news and gives some hope.

Although my friend who posted it did it while ranting that the government should have listened to him, and then he got the shits 'cause I tried to explain to him that just because 1 of his 1,000 guesses came true it doesn't mean retroactively the government or the scientists were wrong at the time, as that's not how the scientific method works. Then there were comments back and forth including him calling me a Bill Gates shill and saying the Rona is a hoax, and 5G causes tracking microcancer chips or something. I have to be honest, I phased him out and a few times I pointed out that all the drugs he took while we were at school were having an effect now.

Long story short, I'm good at pissing people off. Also, I'm a shill for Big Bill.
 

Hacky McAxe

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This resonates with me

- No matter how hard the death of anyone under 50 is spun, it is so vanishingly rare among Australia's body count as to be close to zero. If you are a woman, it is zero. In Australia there is a far greater statistical chance that someone under 60 will die in a car accident.

I always love this statistic because it's so easy to debunk by just saying, "if we removed 95% of the cars from the road, do you think this would still be right?"

'cause we have effectively removed 95% of close contacts which is how the virus spreads.
 

Flanagun

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Also there are any number of examples where countries / jurisdictions have mandated masks only for infection numbers to increase significantly within the period following the mandate of masks.

I'm not saying masks don't work, but I see enough conflicting evidence to make me seriously question their effectiveness.
Any filter is going to provide some protection and if both the infected and healthy person are wearing one, that protection is going to be even greater..... it shouldn't take a study to tell you that. I think it's just basic common sense. I think the risk of the mask is that people may become complacent, feel they are protected and ignore social distancing requirements.....another is that they may not wash or sanitise their hands before putting masks on, I guess...... but I think it's just basic common sense that wearing a mask when coupled with social distancing wherever possible and other adequate hygiene practices, will significantly reduce the risk of catching or spreading the virus. These people who cram themselves into Trump rallies like sardines don't bother with masks, social distancing or in all likelihood, proper hygiene practices.

Trump has been caught on tape admitting he deliberately downplayed the threat of the virus and has openly encouraged supporters to throw caution to the wind and not only go on with their lives, but do it with complete and utter reckless abandon. I don't see how anyone in their right mind could say his handling of the virus has been anything less than totally inept and shambolic. As milquetoast and unappealing as Biden is, I honestly think Trump's COVID incompetence will cost him the Presidency.

Also, not saying for a minute that Cuomo or other leftist leaders haven't made mistakes, but the virus has spread like wildfire throughout the country....New York is the most populous city in the US, so it only stands to reason figures there would be very high in the event of a national outbreak. Many leaders made mistakes in the early stages of the pandemic.....Trump has handled things badly from the beginning and continues to handle it badly even as the body count continues to rise steeply every day.
 

CroydonDog

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Another thing we don't really know yet is the long term aftermath of Covid. What we do know so far is that it can have some serious after effects on a number of organs in the body. Whether these effects can heal/reduce over a longer period will remain to be seen.
 

Dawgfather

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Any filter is going to provide some protection and if both the infected and healthy person are wearing one, that protection is going to be even greater..... it shouldn't take a study to tell you that. I think it's just basic common sense. I think the risk of the mask is that people may become complacent, feel they are protected and ignore social distancing requirements.....another is that they may not wash or sanitise their hands before putting masks on, I guess...... but I think it's just basic common sense that wearing a mask when coupled with social distancing wherever possible and other adequate hygiene practices, will significantly reduce the risk of catching or spreading the virus. These people who cram themselves into Trump rallies like sardines don't bother with masks, social distancing or in all likelihood, proper hygiene practices.

Trump has been caught on tape admitting he deliberately downplayed the threat of the virus and has openly encouraged supporters to throw caution to the wind and not only go on with their lives, but do it with complete and utter reckless abandon. I don't see how anyone in their right mind could say his handling of the virus has been anything less than totally inept and shambolic. As milquetoast and unappealing as Biden is, I honestly think Trump's COVID incompetence will cost him the Presidency.

Also, not saying for a minute that Cuomo or other leftist leaders haven't made mistakes, but the virus has spread like wildfire throughout the country....New York is the most populous city in the US, so it only stands to reason figures there would be very high in the event of a national outbreak. Many leaders made mistakes in the early stages of the pandemic.....Trump has handled things badly from the beginning and continues to handle it badly even as the body count continues to rise steeply every day.
I agree with parts of what you write, but one of the biggest moves Trump made was the China and Europe travel ban which was almost universally condemned as 'xenophobic' and 'racist' by Joe Biden and most other democrats (and in fairness many republicans as well).

But the policy was one of the more effective policies when it comes to directly saving lives.

Sincere question here (I don't know the answer) - my impression is that Trump said stupid things throughout the pandemic, but I'm not aware of the actual policy related things he's done (or didn't do) which were negligent or just plainly wrong. Sincerely open to being educated on this point.

I have family in the U.S. and they tell me a similar story to what is going on here in Australia.

The U.S and Australia both have three levels of government (local, state and federal). This amount of Bureaucracy makes it next to impossibly to be effective because you have hundreds or maybe thousands of leaders all making their own decisions rather than just one national leader determining what will or won't happen.

So the problem in the U.S is the same as in Aus where Daniel Andrews does his own thing, Anastasia does her own thing, Gladys does her own thing etc etc and then Scomo sits at the top acting like a scared lamb because he doesn't want to upset anyone.
 

Flanagun

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I agree with parts of what you write, but one of the biggest moves Trump made was the China and Europe travel ban which was almost universally condemned as 'xenophobic' and 'racist' by Joe Biden and most other democrats (and in fairness many republicans as well).

But the policy was one of the more effective policies when it comes to directly saving lives.

Sincere question here (I don't know the answer) - my impression is that Trump said stupid things throughout the pandemic, but I'm not aware of the actual policy related things he's done (or didn't do) which were negligent or just plainly wrong. Sincerely open to being educated on this point.

I have family in the U.S. and they tell me a similar story to what is going on here in Australia.

The U.S and Australia both have three levels of government (local, state and federal). This amount of Bureaucracy makes it next to impossibly to be effective because you have hundreds or maybe thousands of leaders all making their own decisions rather than just one national leader determining what will or won't happen.

So the problem in the U.S is the same as in Aus where Daniel Andrews does his own thing, Anastasia does her own thing, Gladys does her own thing etc etc and then Scomo sits at the top acting like a scared lamb because he doesn't want to upset anyone.
I think the China/ Europe travel ban probably saved more lives in China and Europe than in the US, lol. I know China isn't exactly a reliable source, but they took very harsh steps to contain the lockdown and I don't think there is any way on earth they have been hit as hard as the US by this virus. If anything, China should be criticised for its typically authoritarian approach to the lockdown, which was no doubt effective in helping to contain the virus, but was too draconian and involved significant violations of human rights. All these derps in Australia, the US and other western democracies complaining about lockdown have no idea of what it's like to truly have their freedoms violated by lockdown restrictions. They should experience lockdown in China some time. While lockdown measures in China were brutal, I don't really doubt they have been effective in containing spread of the virus..... and other countries have demonstrated lockdown measures don't need to be so heavy handed to produce successful results.

I think it was definitely a huge policy mistake for Trump to push for the country to reopen without any attempt to flatten the curve. I know that it is economically not viable to prolong a lockdown for too long, but evidence suggests a short term lockdown can make a big difference and a large number of leading economists say containing the virus through decisive lockdown measures will have less long term economic impact than allowing things to snowball out of control. Not only does Trump now have a health crisis on his hands, his country is also looking down the barrel of a major recession....so what exactly has his reckless approach to the issue achieved? I know you don't agree with lockdowns, but I think they have worked very well in many parts of the world, including this country. Even if you take our worst hit state, we have only had 19,000 cases in Vic, compare this to Massachusetts, which has a similar population and has had over 125,000 cases.

Yes, Trump left the decision to reopen or not to reopen largely in the hands of the states, but as I understand it, he DID have the authority to enforce a nation wide lockdown and handed that power over to the states. I stand to be corrected if I'm wrong about that. Then there is the fact that he openly encouraged anti lockdown protesters to ignore state laws. Holding those blue states accountable is a bit tenuous when the most influential man in the country has gone on record and actively encouraged his supporters and other so called crusaders for freedom to show a blatant disregard for their laws, because he thought there was political mileage in it.

Finally, the impact of his words really can not be overstated. He is the most influential person in the country and has a large number of supporters who hang on his every word. He has constantly downplayed the threat of this virus......from day one. Not only did he push for the economy to reopen too quickly, but he made no effort to emphasise the importance of social distancing, to urge people to wear masks, or even to practice good hygiene once the nation got back to business. Even to this day, he is making no attempt whatsoever to encourage his supporters to wear masks or social distance at his rallies. They really are packing themselves in like sardines, yelling and hollering and spreading bloody COVID all over the place.

I don't see how anyone can think ultimate responsibility for the mess the entire nation is in does not rest on his shoulders. He has been abysmal.

https://www.smh.com.au/politics/fed...id-19-rba-and-economists-20200915-p55vv1.html
 

Flanagun

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Guys you do know this guy would argue beer bottles are blue just so he can see his words on the page. Not worth it.
I know this well.....yet every day, I find myself butting heads with him - on this thread, or another ......go figure.
 

wendog33

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I know this well.....yet every day, I find myself butting heads with him - on this thread, or another ......go figure.
Oh well there is a benefit. It does expose the contorted opinions and views of bluebottle :grinning:

Its good to debate and exchange views. Only problem is there's no exchanging lol
 

Dawgfather

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Guys you do know this guy would argue beer bottles are blue just so he can see his words on the page. Not worth it.
Are you suggesting it’s only ‘worth it’ if you find ppl who already share your views?

you must have a lot of boring conversations.
 

wendog33

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Are you suggesting it’s only ‘worth it’ if you find ppl who already share your views?

you must have a lot of boring conversations.
I wish.

Sorry mate but that's how I see it. Tried to discuss with you on the Corona thread but you keep repeating the same argument without any acceptance of the facts/figures presented to you. You never believe anything thats contrary to your opinion and bias, so it's like beating our heads against a brick wall.

Come over to the Board Report Card thread and avago there :grinning:
 
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