News Canterbury-Bankstown Bulldogs to host Canberra Raiders in 2020 NRL pre-season trial in Port Macquari

speedy2460

Kennel Addict
Joined
Jun 23, 2008
Messages
5,180
Reaction score
4,563
Confusion about attack and defence. Some say attack is the best form of defence. Thats OK in a military sense but not necessarily in RL.
The reality is that the club needs to get the defence right, and build the attack on the back of it. If the defence is right, the attack will happen.
 

GDR

Kennel Addict
2 x Gilded
Premium Member
Joined
Sep 3, 2013
Messages
6,758
Reaction score
10,247
Confusion about attack and defence. Some say attack is the best form of defence. Thats OK in a military sense but not necessarily in RL.
The reality is that the club needs to get the defence right, and build the attack on the back of it. If the defence is right, the attack will happen.
no it also applies in Rugby league and most sports around the world .. if you spend all the time in the opponents red zone then:
a) you tire them out
b) its extremely hard to score a try from 90 metres out.

Defence is attitude , if defence is bad there is something rotten in the club, generally speaking.

However attack is not based on effort, it is based on skill, knowledge, cohesion, speed, strength and confidence.. The coach cant really do much about skill, speed and strength if the attitude is right, but he has a hell of a say in Knowledge, Cohesion and Confidence.
it doesn't get much simpler than that
 

TwinTurbo

Kennel Legend
Gilded
Joined
Oct 22, 2018
Messages
9,346
Reaction score
15,416
As for Tolman he’s an honest toiler but he does not need to play 70min a game and please don’t get in the halves way ie 4th tackle hit ups
This Tolman 4th tackle shyte is wearing a bit thin, "get in the way" FFS what's he supposed to do when someone passes the ball to him, not catch it, knock it on, let it sale on past? The problem is not with the receiver it's the passer that shouldn't be passing it to him on the 4th (or 5th). We need to stop dumping the blame on Tolman, he's not the only forward that someone inappropriately passes the ball to late in the tackle count. The fault lies with whoever it is that is passing the ball in that direction and it's far from the halves only that are guilty of it.

Go Dogs
 

Tassie Devil

Kennel Immortal
Joined
Oct 29, 2018
Messages
17,041
Reaction score
14,783
This Tolman 4th tackle shyte is wearing a bit thin, "get in the way" FFS what's he supposed to do when someone passes the ball to him, not catch it, knock it on, let it sale on past? The problem is not with the receiver it's the passer that shouldn't be passing it to him on the 4th (or 5th). We need to stop dumping the blame on Tolman, he's not the only forward that someone inappropriately passes the ball to late in the tackle count. The fault lies with whoever it is that is passing the ball in that direction and it's far from the halves only that are guilty of it.

Go Dogs
Have to agree with this. The question is why he's being given the ball on the 4th tackle in those positions. Doubt he's the one who's calling the shots etc. so seems only logical that the playmaker is questioned rather than the forward who ends up with it surely?
 

Tassie Devil

Kennel Immortal
Joined
Oct 29, 2018
Messages
17,041
Reaction score
14,783
no it also applies in Rugby league and most sports around the world .. if you spend all the time in the opponents red zone then:
a) you tire them out
b) its extremely hard to score a try from 90 metres out.

Defence is attitude , if defence is bad there is something rotten in the club, generally speaking.

However attack is not based on effort, it is based on skill, knowledge, cohesion, speed, strength and confidence.. The coach cant really do much about skill, speed and strength if the attitude is right, but he has a hell of a say in Knowledge, Cohesion and Confidence.
it doesn't get much simpler than that
Hmm makes sense. Would argue that perhaps it's not true in all sports, but can definitely agree with league.

Aren't you saying then that defence can't be coached? You can coach them to have the right attitude, but tactically it's not as big an issue? Or are you connecting the two?
 

GDR

Kennel Addict
2 x Gilded
Premium Member
Joined
Sep 3, 2013
Messages
6,758
Reaction score
10,247
This Tolman 4th tackle shyte is wearing a bit thin, "get in the way" FFS what's he supposed to do when someone passes the ball to him, not catch it, knock it on, let it sale on past? The problem is not with the receiver it's the passer that shouldn't be passing it to him on the 4th (or 5th). We need to stop dumping the blame on Tolman, he's not the only forward that someone inappropriately passes the ball to late in the tackle count. The fault lies with whoever it is that is passing the ball in that direction and it's far from the halves only that are guilty of it.

Go Dogs
I feel by this comment that youve never played rugby league or any team sport for that matter..

Every team has a hog, that pushes people out of the way to get the ball or stands in the way and it leaves others no other choice than to pass the ball to him.

growing up in every team sport I played, there was always one of these blokes...
 

GDR

Kennel Addict
2 x Gilded
Premium Member
Joined
Sep 3, 2013
Messages
6,758
Reaction score
10,247
Hmm makes sense. Would argue that perhaps it's not true in all sports, but can definitely agree with league.

Aren't you saying then that defence can't be coached? You can coach them to have the right attitude, but tactically it's not as big an issue? Or are you connecting the two?
not saying defence cannot be coached, but it is extremely basic coaching, with at least 80% of defence coming from attitude... (wrestle coaching excluded)
 

Chris Harding

Steam Powered Dog
Premium Member
Joined
Mar 1, 2004
Messages
11,088
Reaction score
11,628
It sounds like Pay will start off the season with the same defensive mentality as predicted.

Improving the attack should be the focus and it will be interesting to see what changes, if any, have been made come Round 1.
True; but we did leak points early last season. It really buggered our for and against later in the year.
 

B-Train

Kennel Immortal
Joined
Mar 1, 2004
Messages
32,591
Reaction score
48,171
This Tolman 4th tackle shyte is wearing a bit thin, "get in the way" FFS what's he supposed to do when someone passes the ball to him, not catch it, knock it on, let it sale on past? The problem is not with the receiver it's the passer that shouldn't be passing it to him on the 4th (or 5th). We need to stop dumping the blame on Tolman, he's not the only forward that someone inappropriately passes the ball to late in the tackle count. The fault lies with whoever it is that is passing the ball in that direction and it's far from the halves only that are guilty of it.

Go Dogs
He's supposed to not get in the way. He shouldn't be there in the first place. Either run a hard decoy through the line like he should or stay out the back out of the picture like most other middle forwards would in that situation if they weren't running a hard decoy line.

Like Rota said, hogs like Gallen and Tolman can't help but get in the way because they want the ball as much as possible.

No one can fault Tolman's effort or his brilliant defense. But if anyone thinks that Tolman isn't accountable for getting in the way in attack is watching a different game to me. It's more than a coincidence that he's done this under Bellamy, Hasler and Pay.

But to your point, if we had smarter and more experienced halves and a hooker the last several seasons, they would have told Tolman to get the fuck out of the way or just not give it to him in those situations.
 

KiwiDog7

Kennel Immortal
Joined
Feb 26, 2016
Messages
15,761
Reaction score
23,894
This Tolman 4th tackle shyte is wearing a bit thin, "get in the way" FFS what's he supposed to do when someone passes the ball to him, not catch it, knock it on, let it sale on past? The problem is not with the receiver it's the passer that shouldn't be passing it to him on the 4th (or 5th). We need to stop dumping the blame on Tolman, he's not the only forward that someone inappropriately passes the ball to late in the tackle count. The fault lies with whoever it is that is passing the ball in that direction and it's far from the halves only that are guilty of it.

Go Dogs
Suggest you go watch a few games more closely and you will see many examples of him pushing through and taking the pill on 4

The one that really pisses me off is when we make a rare break upfield and from the next play the ball we looking for a quick wide shift then low and behold Tolman comes from no where for a hit up

Some might say a stat paddler

GO DOGS!
 

wendog33

Kennel Immortal
Premium Member
Ladder Champion
Joined
Aug 6, 2016
Messages
24,741
Reaction score
27,950
I feel by this comment that youve never played rugby league or any team sport for that matter..

Every team has a hog, that pushes people out of the way to get the ball or stands in the way and it leaves others no other choice than to pass the ball to him.

growing up in every team sport I played, there was always one of these blokes...
The coach has the responsibility of ensuring hogs don't disrupt his gameplan.

Tolman on the 4th, Tolman attempting bargeover tries, Tolman tackling piggyback style for 10 post contact metres is so ingrained in Bulldogs playing style these days, that Pay MUST be including it in his gameplan. Otherwise he is a very poor coach not to see the over use of Tolman in sets.

Love Tolman's efforts. 100% for his club and team mates but there are several instances, every game, where play breaks down due to his dominance in the set.

On the other hand he is the first to get there to support a break.

Can't bag the bloke as he has been a real first class clubman but too small and becoming ineffective now for long minutes in the frontrow.
 

GDR

Kennel Addict
2 x Gilded
Premium Member
Joined
Sep 3, 2013
Messages
6,758
Reaction score
10,247
Suggest you go watch a few games more closely and you will see many examples of him pushing through and taking the pill on 4

The one that really pisses me off is when we make a rare break upfield and from the next play the ball we looking for a quick wide shift then low and behold Tolman comes from no where for a hit up

Some might say a stat paddler

GO DOGS!
Peter Tunks constantly refers to him as a hog and stats paddler (not those exact words).
 

GDR

Kennel Addict
2 x Gilded
Premium Member
Joined
Sep 3, 2013
Messages
6,758
Reaction score
10,247
The coach has the responsibility of ensuring hogs don't disrupt his gameplan.

Tolman on the 4th, Tolman attempting bargeover tries, Tolman tackling piggyback style for 10 post contact metres is so ingrained in Bulldogs playing style these days, that Pay MUST be including it in his gameplan. Otherwise he is a very poor coach not to see the over use of Tolman in sets.

Love Tolman's efforts. 100% for his club and team mates but there are several instances, every game, where play breaks down due to his dominance in the set.

On the other hand he is the first to get there to support a break.

Can't bag the bloke as he has been a real first class clubman but too small and becoming ineffective now for long minutes in the frontrow.
yeah I have to agree, the coach should have done more to stop this, but I get a feel from his press conferences, he encourages the behaviour ..
 

speedy2460

Kennel Addict
Joined
Jun 23, 2008
Messages
5,180
Reaction score
4,563
Hard to argue with the posters on the Tolman matter. Its true the halves need to be more selective in who they pass to.
But its hard when the other players dont get themselves into a position to take a pass.
Tolman is always pushing forward, (like he has done for years) and a few of the others need to take a lesson on his enthusiasm.
 

Tassie Devil

Kennel Immortal
Joined
Oct 29, 2018
Messages
17,041
Reaction score
14,783
not saying defence cannot be coached, but it is extremely basic coaching, with at least 80% of defence coming from attitude... (wrestle coaching excluded)
Well, having never played league before nor really gone into all the technical side of things I really can't comment on the finer points of the game if I'm honest. Makes sense what you're saying though and will leave it to more knowledgeable posters to agree / disagree :grinning:)
 

Tassie Devil

Kennel Immortal
Joined
Oct 29, 2018
Messages
17,041
Reaction score
14,783
Hard to argue with the posters on the Tolman matter. Its true the halves need to be more selective in who they pass to.
But its hard when the other players dont get themselves into a position to take a pass.
Tolman is always pushing forward, (like he has done for years) and a few of the others need to take a lesson on his enthusiasm.
Fair points. Again though wouldn't you say it's up the halves to be organising the team so that they're in the correct positions? And the coach to ensure the players are trained to do that? Maybe it's just that all of them are crap ... or were for long periods over the last few years.

hopefully with Shifty in things are a little more structured on that point?
 

Tassie Devil

Kennel Immortal
Joined
Oct 29, 2018
Messages
17,041
Reaction score
14,783
yeah I have to agree, the coach should have done more to stop this, but I get a feel from his press conferences, he encourages the behaviour ..
That fact he continued to play Tolman would probably give you point some merit.
 

GDR

Kennel Addict
2 x Gilded
Premium Member
Joined
Sep 3, 2013
Messages
6,758
Reaction score
10,247
Well, having never played league before nor really gone into all the technical side of things I really can't comment on the finer points of the game if I'm honest. Makes sense what you're saying though and will leave it to more knowledgeable posters to agree / disagree :grinning:)
I'm far from an expert, but I am a student of the game and have been for approx. 30 years... and I may in fact be wrong on this, but from the outside looking in, I don't think I am.

There are very limited choices in the defensive structures teams can adopt, with the main variables being wrestle, fitness and effort, impacting the efficiency of a teams defence.

Without question Wrestle and the referees interpretation of a teams wrestle, has become increasingly more important over the past 15 years..
 

KiwiDog7

Kennel Immortal
Joined
Feb 26, 2016
Messages
15,761
Reaction score
23,894
I'm far from an expert, but I am a student of the game and have been for approx. 30 years... and I may in fact be wrong on this, but from the outside looking in, I don't think I am.

There are very limited choices in the defensive structures teams can adopt, with the main variables being wrestle, fitness and effort, impacting the efficiency of a teams defence.

Without question Wrestle and the referees interpretation of a teams wrestle, has become increasingly more important over the past 15 years..
On that point with the wrestle

We sucked last year in that department
 

Wahesh

The Forefather of The Kennel
Joined
Dec 6, 2007
Messages
24,798
Reaction score
12,077
Isn't wrestling being phased out of the game slowly with all these ridiculous rule changes that are introduced every year?
 
Top