Diagonsis of early 2019's disease.

[albatross]

Yes Pay when asked about what is different to the good finish last year to this year said last year we lost a lot of experience with the loss of players so it took the younger players a while to gel. Most of them have more experience now and they basically have the same squad for next year.

It kind of makes sense.

No excuses for Pay now if we start poorly next year. The team should have a lot of confidence we can more than match it with most top 8 teams. I just hope we don't gfo back to playing safe footy and not taking risks like we did when the pressure was off.

Exactly mate. We now know very clearly we can compete with any team with our defence, so winning at least half or more of our games next year must be the teams expectation.

 

[speedy2460]

It is no doubt that we are in a similar (although slightly better) boat then we were 12 months ago. Hence it is clear that Dean Pay's credentials are at stake if he cannot carry on this good form into the start of 2020. We saw what happened earlier in the season, and it was clear that we did not capitalize on our fast finish to the 2018 season. If Dean Pay is unable to get it right this time and gets off to another slow start, I believe there should be questions asked.

In my opinion, I believe the poor start to the year was mainly due to our team selections. Our team in round 1 is so much different to our team now. It is also understandable since Pay had to deal with a lot of personnel losses.

However, in 2020, we need to avoid this, and I believe that Dean Pay must chose his team correctly. With Harper's debut and a fully fit squad, featuring backline players including: DWZ, Hopoate, Holland, Smith, Okunbor, Meaney, Harper it is key that he chooses correctly and sticks with it.

Same thing with the halves and at hooker (if we did sign Billy Brittain). Hopefully Pay gets it all correct.

What would you put down to our poor start to the season and how would you ensure that it doesn't happy again in 2020?

Couple of statements that are not correct.
Blaming the coach is a cop out. Have you considered the players?
The selections were made on form, commitment, fitness and ability to contribute. Some players just did not aim up.
The selections were made on what has been observed in games and on the training paddock. Some players did not put in and were dropped.
You criticise his selections. Does that make you a better judge than him? I wouldnt think so.
As far as sticking with it, if players dont perform to a standard, they get relegated. He has the guts to do just that.
The poor start to the season was because of a myriad of reasons. Jackson was not fit following surgery.
Jackson did not demonstrate and leadership at that time. He has improved though.
Hopoate was missing tackles like a turnstyle. He has also improved.
With a few new players in the pipeline next season will be a very good one. Just stay strong and stop being negative.

 

[Straight18]

To me its simple. Squad full of young blokes, no reason they cant play 4 trials, there young the more they play the better.
Obviously we have 5 or 6 older blokes that probably only need a couple. That would be a start.
Take em out to dubbo or bathurst and play about 6 warm up games against there best sides over a short week, just to get the young blokes into the season ealier. Let em score some easier trys get there confidence up with plenty of fresh teams and legs coming at them to test there defence line.
30 mins against his mates at the raiders will be another fail.
Canberra have a much more experienced side that doesnt need trials like us. Waste of time having a run against them.
If the canberra thing is our pre season triall again.
We wont win a thing till round 15 again just like this year.
Jmk gets no footy untill kickoff round one and pay wants to make a hooker out of him. Kid should of got 5 good trialls under his belt so he had half a chance but no that doesnt happen.
Last 2 pre seasons have been poorly managed and seen where gonna do things old school i cant see that changing under deano, it needs too, its not the 90s anymore.

 

[Straight18]

Couple of statements that are not correct.
Blaming the coach is a cop out. Have you considered the players?
The selections were made on form, commitment, fitness and ability to contribute. Some players just did not aim up.
The selections were made on what has been observed in games and on the training paddock. Some players did not put in and were dropped.
You criticise his selections. Does that make you a better judge than him? I wouldnt think so.
As far as sticking with it, if players dont perform to a standard, they get relegated. He has the guts to do just that.
The poor start to the season was because of a myriad of reasons. Jackson was not fit following surgery.
Jackson did not demonstrate and leadership at that time. He has improved though.
Hopoate was missing tackles like a turnstyle. He has also improved.
With a few new players in the pipeline next season will be a very good one. Just stay strong and stop being negative.

Its clear the ability is there. 30 players out of top 30 squad were out of form, un fitt, un commited.....
I dont think so. Des had manly ready to go. No reason pay should not have our players that switched on.
Dont have to be better, but have to be ready and prepared which was clearly not the case.
Then if we cant win, u start trading players. Nothing is wrong with this squad.
One more prop, centre and another half when foz goes and good coaching and where a number 5 or 6 team next year.
No excuses for mediocracy.
We have 7 or 8 origin and test players, but our squad is too weak.
Bullshit.

 

[Dawain87]

We were blown off the park in some early games and everyone could see that Fitness and combinations in defence/offence didnt click.

Its amazing what confidence can do to professional sports people.

 

[Delta]

Couple of statements that are not correct.
Blaming the coach is a cop out. Have you considered the players?
The selections were made on form, commitment, fitness and ability to contribute. Some players just did not aim up.
The selections were made on what has been observed in games and on the training paddock. Some players did not put in and were dropped.
You criticise his selections. Does that make you a better judge than him? I wouldnt think so.
As far as sticking with it, if players dont perform to a standard, they get relegated. He has the guts to do just that.
The poor start to the season was because of a myriad of reasons. Jackson was not fit following surgery.
Jackson did not demonstrate and leadership at that time. He has improved though.
Hopoate was missing tackles like a turnstyle. He has also improved.
With a few new players in the pipeline next season will be a very good one. Just stay strong and stop being negative.

What? I defend pay all the time on here, I’m just saying that he has to get it correct this time because he didn’t last time.

 

[BMOC]

The way I would diagnose it is slack defence that led to some easy tries to the opponents. Then followed by lack of confidence to score and get back into the match. I thought we competed really well in some games earlier in the year. But as soon as our defence gave in it started to look ugly. I think the boys know that they have attacking issues and that is why they have turned to defence.

The difference is going into the half 14-0 vs going into the half 6-0.

The only way the dogs will win is if their defence is up to scratch. You can always buy attacking power

 

[The__GM]

For mine our poor start was made up of quite a few factors. Apologies for the long post - this is my summary of the first 2/3rds of the season:

• Only 1 preseason game. Pays preferred starting 13 only got 40 minutes together, in which we rolled the Raiders. We then put the fringe/ CC players on and the Raiders put us to the sword. From there we had no other opportunities to work on combinations or structured plays etc. There should have been more opposed sessions (I believe we had one with the Tigers) to help iron these issues out early on.
• Game 1 game against NZ: Opening the season in NZ with a new squad is always a tough task. Historically our club does well on NZ soil, but with so many new faces and combinations with an underdone preseason, it was always going to be tough. We started the first 10 minutes of the game well, then things fell apart as NZ scored some quality try's off freakish kicks inside 20m that we simply didn't have the size to diffuse. Pay mentioned in the press conference "we played a game before we even got onto the field" so it sounds like the preparation/ warm ups/ etc were completely off. This game also featured Crichton, Holland and Montoya (no height/ size) against Fusitua, Maumalo and Kata who had a field day. Meany should have been in the squad at FB (Safe as houses), with Smith/ Jayden on the wings, Hoppa/ Montoya (sigh) in the centres.
• Game 2 against Parra: close contest which blew out in the middle 40 minutes - CHN and Sue in particular got rolled up the middle when they came on and we threw 2 intercept try's to throw the game away. Lost by 20 in a game where if both those passes came off were 2 x 12 point swings (24 points to us rather than Parra ie we win the game). Instead of being 1-1 to open the year, we're now 0-2.
• Game 3 against Tigers: The Nick Meany and Jayden Okunbor arrival game. Foz also had the game of his life (right up until he fucked his ankle). Tigers had nothing and MBye had a shocker dropping multiple bombs from the back.
• Game 4 Melbourne @ Melb: Jayden Okunbor's coming out party. This game we should have won - fucked by the Refs on the Chambers Penalty Try. Again rolled in the middle 40 minute period as a tired Adam Elliot got danced past by Munster from a scrum, Tui Kamikamica bursting through the middle, and Rhyse Martin missing his sideline conversion to take us to extra time (no guarantee we win from there). If the Parra game went our way, we'd be 3-1 at this point. Instead, we're 1-3.
• Game 5 at Jubilee against the Dragons: The game was men amongst boys. All of our forwards got absolutely dominated. After getting up for the Melbourne game, we backed it up with another road trip (only 1 game at ANZ so far). Martin and Lewis had absolute shockers (intercept passes, 1 on 1 strips, kicks out on the full). We made 0 impact (36 missed tackles to dragons 11) with 12 errors. Norman and Hunt kicked us off the park.
• Game 6 vs Souths (Good Friday): We should have won this game. I posted earlier about Holland having a try taken off him for a 'shove' in the back of Gagai (when Luke Garner had the same play awarded a try later in the year...). We lost this one 14-6 though could have easily won. At this point (With Eels, Storm and this game going our way) we'd be 4-2 (with the two losses being the blowouts). Instead, we're 1-5.
• Game 7 vs Cowboys: No JT13, TMM playing with a brain bleed at fullback, Kurt Baptiste getting a run, we had a very soft Cowboys team in front of us after a tough win in NZ. The 24 points we scored was one of the highest all season (until Round 25). CHN coming out party - dominated on his edge bagging a double. We're now 2-5 (Could be 5-2).
• Game 8 vs Manly at Lottoland: Fuck me dead was this game frustrating. Manly scored two of the softest try's early in t he contest with Okunbor/ Holland/ Lewis/ CHN not knowing how to read their right-side attack. We got back into the grind however penalty goals were the difference (Manly kicked 3). This is another game we could have easily won but bottled our chances and let Manly get away to an early lead. This game also had no DCE/ Tommy T/ Dylan Walker. Another "should have won" game we let slip. Now 2-6, could easily be 6-2.
• Game 9 vs Knights: Lose 22-10. This game we were fucked by the refs - the second try (Pearce grubber to himself), Nick Meany clearly grounds the ball first (should have been a dropout, awarded a try), and then you have the debacle where Pearce knocks on in the dying stages of the game, refs miss the call, Ponga scoops it up and steps the corpse of Foz (IMO Rushed back from his injury from the tigers game - was meany to be out 10 weeks - back in 5?) to add to his highlight real and put the game to bed. Similar to the Eels game, final score looked worse than it was and we easily could have won the game. Record is now 2-7, easily could be 7-2.
• Game 10 vs Titans: This game was much closer than it should have been. Thank God Ash Taylor's head fucked because any competent half could have put us away. Happy to take the win. Record now stands 3-7, could have easily been 8-2.
• Game 11 vs Storm @ Belmore: Fuck me this game was a hard watch. Packed house, great spot on the hill, Melbourne just wrestled the shit out of us. JAC also had his best game of the season. Our outside backs also consisted of Crichton and Montoya. I'll never forget one Montoya play that fucked us - game was in the balance, we get a scrum on our 50. First hit-up, Montoya hits and spins about 2-3 times then tries to force an offload, ball is knocked-on, Melbourne go down and either score a try or kick a penalty goal. Highly unlikely we win this game. Record is now 3-8, easily could be 8-3.
• Game 12 vs Raiders: I can't bring myself to review this dogshit contest. Raiders completely decimated with origin and injuries, Sam fucking Williams in the 7, we manage all of 10 points and lose 12-10. Easily could have won this game, making our record 9-3, instead we're 3-9.
• Game 13 vs Dragons: We started this game like a house on fire then got completely fucked yet again up the middle. Norman and Hunt kicked us off the park again. Never in this game - we're now 3-10 instead of being 9-4.
• Game 14 vs Roosters: We lose this one 38-12 but I genuinely feel this game we could have competed in. I shared a player earlier of Cronk taking out RFM on a kick chase which resulted in a 7 tackle set. Easily could have seen 10 in the bin. Manu also gave Holland a bath from FB with 2 try's and 1 TA (24 runs for 299m). We're now 3-11 instead of being 9-5. DWZ also made his Debut but copped a nasty shiner on his eye.
• Game 15 vs Sharks: Win / strong finish to the back third begins.
• From here we have a bye, and only drop games to the Roosters, Ponies and Cowboys. We finish the year 10 wins and 14 losses. It could easily have been 16 wins 8 losses with the earlier results going our way.

To summarise, the biggest issues we had in the early 2/3rds of the season come down to:

1. Virtually brand new 30. No Mbye, Klemmer, Morris Twins, Meany on board, Cogger coming in, Foz in and out, DWZ coming late, Martin released, CHN in and out of starting/ bench/ reggies. Deano never got the chance to set a solid 17-21. Once he did, the ship was on the right track.
2. Continuing this - players like Lichaa, Fualalo, Montoya, Holland, Brown, etc who aren't a part of our long-term plan should never have been getting a run in first grade from the start. Meany should have been playing from week 1.
3. The halves shuffling of Cogger/ Lewis/ Foz and then Wakeham. When healthy, Foz 100% should be one of our halves. I prefer what Cogger offers offensively and can be covered defensively next to Jacko/ Hoppa. Lewis is the stronger defender but has alot to improve on in terms of halves play. Has a massive boot and when it's on it's great, but Cogger is just as good and has an actual running game considering his size.
4. Jesse Sue took the piss for the first 10 weeks. He finally came good, and when he did the poor bastard did his ACL.
5. As much as Elliot is everyone's favorite whipping boy, he should have played in the 13 with Jack on the right and CHN on the left. Bring RFM/ Renouf/ Smith/ Ogden off the bench with Naps/ Tols up the middle. Making Elliot play on an edge and try to ball play was always rocks and diamonds.
6. Lichaa needs his own point - this **** should never have been extended.
7. Experience - as Deano said in his final presser - the youngens finally got 20+ first grade games under their belt. The quality of the Canterbury Cup is a far cry from First Grade. And with the u20s comp scrapped, there's no longer a strong pathway up to first grade. All the boys will be better for the run in 2019 come the start of 2020. Strong preseason, settled roster with strong signings (DWZ, Stimson, Brit, etc) and we should have a much stronger 2020 and easily crack the top 8.

 

[dogwhisperer]

To me its simple. Squad full of young blokes, no reason they cant play 4 trials, there young the more they play the better.
Obviously we have 5 or 6 older blokes that probably only need a couple. That would be a start.
Take em out to dubbo or bathurst and play about 6 warm up games against there best sides over a short week, just to get the young blokes into the season ealier. Let em score some easier trys get there confidence up with plenty of fresh teams and legs coming at them to test there defence line.
30 mins against his mates at the raiders will be another fail.
Canberra have a much more experienced side that doesnt need trials like us. Waste of time having a run against them.
If the canberra thing is our pre season triall again.
We wont win a thing till round 15 again just like this year.
Jmk gets no footy untill kickoff round one and pay wants to make a hooker out of him. Kid should of got 5 good trialls under his belt so he had half a chance but no that doesnt happen.
Last 2 pre seasons have been poorly managed and seen where gonna do things old school i cant see that changing under deano, it needs too, its not the 90s anymore.

4 trials and 6 warm up games...LOL, yeh no worries so they can run out of steam come round 18 of the regular season. That's just dumb, lucky you're not the coach.

2 solid trial games with our top 17 playing more than just 40 minutes per half is plenty and treat the games like a proper NRL game.

 

[speedy2460]

What? I defend pay all the time on here, I’m just saying that he has to get it correct this time because he didn’t last time.

You might think he got it wrong. But you, like me, have no inside information on players. I would back Dean Pay and his opinions.

 

[Mozzie]

Some Good opinions but for me it was all about cohesion We had A new young team. All trying to impress including the coach. No one expected us to be an instant success except the die hard kennel crew. And we are quick to judge just about everybody was crap at one time or another if you believe what you read on our forum. A great team takes time to mould into something that wins more than they lose. The NRL is very tight except for the top 3 or 4 sides. So in 2020 our side will have better cohesion as the players are more settled. A lot will depend on whether Foz stays healthy.

 

[bulldogfan1]

Difference between this season and last season is that at the end of last season we lost alot of experience and good players.

 

[Scoooby]

More trials to get the fitness up An work out the combos, fitness ready to go come round one 2020, we should make the top 8 easy and that should be the goal, anything else is a bonus. Once we are in the finals we can give it a real go. As you know we never go away an niggle an make teams second guess.!!!

Should be a more positive year.. however if we start poor again an get smashed then you really have to look at the coach... I’m willing to give him the benefit of the doubt, but If the same shit happens I will be back on the pay hating even bigger than this year and by rights.

 

[Psycho Doggie]

On the face of it, it would be very difficult to make a WORSE start than the one in 2019.

 

[MitchNewton]

Our slow start would also have a lot to do with a new team compared to the team that finished last year.
The squad is virtually the same next year so hopefully we can start better.

 

[habs]

We need to improve our attack by about 1 try per match and maintain the defensive steel of last 10 rounds or so.

 

[axeman23]

What? I defend pay all the time on here, I’m just saying that he has to get it correct this time because he didn’t last time.

I agree the team should be settled earlier than it was this year. But in saying that, do you continue with a sub-par squad/players for "continuity's sake"? Really, I'm not even sure myself. For example, the Broncos this year have kept going with Boyd and Milford, I guess with the thinking that "they've done it before for us, they'll play back into form". They're in the 8 (although barely), so if they had of brought young guys in and relegated Milf and particularly Boyd earlier in the season, which way would the team have gone? Would the lack of experience/cohesion have seen them tumble, or would the new guys enthusiasm have infused into the rest of the squad, and could they be higher up than they are? Could be either, but just because you might have made a mistake/players aren't playing up to their ability/what you expect from them early in the season, do you settle on that team, or take some risks? Sure, if we'd been playing with largely the same squad from the last 6-8 weeks from day one and just extrapolate our results from those 8 rounds onto the other 16 it looks good. But as someone mentioned a few of our guys who have been big for us finishing off the year had been dropped earlier (sometimes several times) before the mind-set/effort/skill that they'd shown in the last 8 were there. If they were never dropped to start off, do they show that same improvement? It's possible for sure, but security can breed complacency also. As I said, I don't have all the answers any more than any member here, or the coach. But sometimes a player needs to lose his spot to realise what he had occasionally...

 

[Chris Harding]

I reckon it's a fair point that selections and lack of continuity in the lineup might have contributed to the poor start. But I think some of the weird player droppings we saw was Pay giving players a sharp message about what he wanted. Some of that tough love might have contributed to the spirited defence and buy-in we saw in the last couple of months.

To stop the shit start happening again next year, thinking of the things we can control, I guess I can only state the obvious - we need to start with the same intensity in defence that we finished this year with, and we need to discover how to score points during the off season. I don't agree with some views that we weren't fit coming into the year, otherwise we couldn't have finished so strong, but our mental preparation needs to somehow improve. I'm definitely in the camp of wanting more trials. At least 2, with one being a pretty full strength run. Saints get one every year and start on fire every year.

Agree hard questions are needed for Pay if we start badly again. Not sure where to draw the line but we need to win at least half of our first 6 or 8 games before we start thinking about contracts.

I think we'll have less turmoil now that the cap issue means we will not shed major players and have to quickly re-assemble a team of rookies. Players now have a better idea where they belong in the team, and we have no prima donnas wanting to win games on their own.

I wouldn't use St.George as an example of how to start a season when you consider how they finished it.

 

[BlackDawg]

Napa, Ogden and to oomaga on top of britt and stumpson means our front row rotation is good, If we pick up the bloke from tigers & the young hooker from souths our pack is way better than 2019. Gives foran and lewis more to work with.

 

[mikey]

It is no doubt that we are in a similar (although slightly better) boat then we were 12 months ago. Hence it is clear that Dean Pay's credentials are at stake if he cannot carry on this good form into the start of 2020. We saw what happened earlier in the season, and it was clear that we did not capitalize on our fast finish to the 2018 season. If Dean Pay is unable to get it right this time and gets off to another slow start, I believe there should be questions asked.

In my opinion, I believe the poor start to the year was mainly due to our team selections. Our team in round 1 is so much different to our team now. It is also understandable since Pay had to deal with a lot of personnel losses.

However, in 2020, we need to avoid this, and I believe that Dean Pay must chose his team correctly. With Harper's debut and a fully fit squad, featuring backline players including: DWZ, Hopoate, Holland, Smith, Okunbor, Meaney, Harper it is key that he chooses correctly and sticks with it.

Same thing with the halves and at hooker (if we did sign Billy Brittain). Hopefully Pay gets it all correct.

What would you put down to our poor start to the season and how would you ensure that it doesn't happy again in 2020?

We didn’t look fit at the start of the season.and it took us about a month to catch up to other sides.
You need two trial matches to get some fitness before the season starts.
I’d also like to see Reimis add a couple of kilos of muscle in the off season ditto Meaney and Lewis.